Last week a self defined Mormon grandmother named Kathryn Skaggs wrote a blog in an effort to alert the world that the movie Frozen was targeting children with a “gay agenda”. In a sense, she was not alone in seeing “something gay”. Many gay bloggers reviewed it with the thrill that it captured the air of gay persecution and some went so far as to dub it “the gayest Disney movie ever.”
They, of course, did not mean it in the same way Ms. Skaggs did. There seems to be some common ground that there is a relevant LGBT message, even if we can’t all agree on exactly what it is, and whether it is “bad”.
Ms. Skaggs is a California pro-proposition 8 activist who feels her religious beliefs should trump the right of other families to enjoy the love and commitment she does. Her writing expresses the fear that same sex marriage is the single most daunting threat to society. Her obsession on this topic consumed her long before a certain animated movie hit the multi-plex.
It is not a mystery, therefore, why this icy blockbuster riled her sensibilities and got her all frosted. She saw that it made some gay people happy, and that translated to mean it was not only bad for her, but that it also threatened life as she knows it.
Logically, her points in her anti-Frozen blog are absurd and as paranoid as she worries they might be. In her follow up blog, she claims that she wants no boycott (Phew… it would be tough for her to call for one given she has taken three car loads of children to see it.), no ill will towards the film and a rejoice that others got something out of it. It certainly begs the question as to the purpose of her fussing.
For me, I found her reaction disturbing and worthy of discussion. She is a grandmother, I am a dad. She took her kids to see Frozen, I took mine. Let’s rumble.
Dear Ms. Skaggs,
I know you are smarting a bit due to the public thumping you have taken over your “Not Going to Let it Go” piece. On Twitter you gave it the old “at least it raised awareness” sound bite. News flash: we were already aware.
You weren’t totally wrong. Don’t misunderstand me, you were MOSTLY wrong. You are also wrong about religious rights, the mob actions of a majority who wants a minority to disappear, and about many of the other real ills of the world. Those are discussions for another day.
The discussion this week has been the movie Frozen. You have raised the alarm, mostly unsuccessfully, to declare that this movie is a propaganda film targeting kids with the hidden goal of indoctrinating them with the “gay agenda”. You feel it would “normalize” gay people and allow them (us) to participate in same sex marriages. As a gay dad with two beautiful sons adopted through foster care from drug addicted parents, I am mystified why it is important to you that my family be marginalized and treated as abnormal. I am not arguing whether the idea to accept people who are different is presented. It certainly is. I don’t understand why you have a meanness in rejecting that concept as a good one.
There was something “gay” about Frozen. It was in there. Why else would thousands of gay people get deep gut emotional reaction from the song “Let it Go”? Why else would it be heralded as a terrific “coming out” anthem?
The thing that is in the plot of the movie is a thing called “hope”. It is the hope that people would be accepted for who they are. It is the hope that people who are different will no longer be treated as “bad”, and as something to hide. It is the hope that the bullied will no longer be bullied, and the wonderfully human will be allowed to be proud. That is the “gay” that is in Frozen.
The other things that worried you so much are just not in this movie. Sorry, they aren’t. You worry that Elsa is celebrating disobedience. She isn’t. Ariel took care of that in Little Mermaid. You worry that opposite sex marriage is mocked by Anna’s willingness to marry the first guy that pays attention to her. The movie does not dwell on that point, it works through it. Anna ends up with a guy who treats her as an equal person. For mockable opposite sex pairings due to a single meeting please see Cinderella, wed after one dance; Snow White, wed after a coma and a kiss; and Aurora who only needed a deep sleep and a kiss. The only place heterosexual pairings could earn more derision is on shows like The Bachelor.
Mostly, however, you worry that the movie targeted kids, converting them over. I can assure you that your fears are misguided. (My blogger friend Aaron has suspicions they are not, but I think he was just kidding.) If anyone is susceptible for the indoctrination you worry about, I assume that it would be my kids, raised by a Dad and a Papa.
Fret no more. Here is a conversation I had with my son Jesse, not long after seeing the movie Frozen:
Jesse: “Dad, I have decided that life is about the three Ws”.
Me: “Oh? And what are the three Ws Pal?”
Jesse: “Who are you? Where are you going? And –What are you going to do?”
Me: “Wow. OK. So, what are the answers to those questions for you?”
Jesse: “Well, I am a kid who loves his family. When I grow up, I am going to move to Maui. And… I am going to get married and have a kid someday.”
Taking advantage of a natural moment of opportunity, I then heard myself asking a question I had never posed to him before:
Me: “And who do you see yourself marrying? A man or a woman?” Jesse paused. I was impressed how he did not regard the question as strange. He did not react to it as if there was any preconception as to what his answer should be or was likely to be. He answered without pressure or coercion and with a brief moment of self-reflection.
Jesse:“I’m thinking… a girl.”
Me: “Cool Pal! Sounds like you have things well planned out.” With that, my son had come out to me, as “likely straight”.
Frozen, if it was to mesmerize kids into being gay, had not sunk into a young man who according to “theory” would be a prime candidate.
It leads me to the big question Ms. Skaggs. Of all your grandkids who dragged you to see the Disney movie that you seem to regard with a degree of suspicion, what will happen when one of them comes out to you in the future as gay? There is a chance, statistically, that one of them might be, after all.
What will you do? Will you tell them to cover up and hide, and feel the shame of being different—as Elsa’s parents did? Will you lead them to suicidal feelings, or throw them to the street, as many parents do to their kids in that situation?
Or will you learn the lesson that Anna did, that acceptance and love of your family is the biggest “true love” of all?
Yes, Ms. Skaggs. The movie had a hidden message. It had a message of love, and hope. It had the desire to melt the closed heart and inspire it to let go, and love other people. It wants the target of its message to warm from within and to accept others as they are, and give them the freedom to live their best and fullest lives. What you got wrong is this: that message was not targeted at your grand kids.
It was meant for you.
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Reblogged this on Blissfully Single and commented:
This is truly great. I enjoyed it very much.
Pardon me, but I think I’ll require a little bit more explanation.
So, you chose to be gay. You’re the second person I have ever encountered who claims that. the first was a radical lesbian feminist 35 years ago. But when questioned, she basically admitted to being bisexual.
So, you chose to be gay. You were 100% heterosexual, and then one day, you woke up, and said, “Today I’m am homosexual, and will be forever.” Is that how it went? Because if it didn’t, all you did was go through the same process so many other people have gone through.
I also went through both pages of previous comments, and saw no comment from someone named Gusto. Nor did I see where I called you a bigot. First, I label people bigots who think that they have the right to determine the course of my life, and not in a positive way, based upon not the reality of my life, but what they think is the reality of my life. I label bigots the people who vilify me, lie about me, and wish to harm the lives of me and mine.
“There are many people, religious and otherwise, who don’t know what to think about gay people and the rights they are fighting for. You labeling anyone a “bigot” who is trying to understand homosexuality, while still holding to their own values, seems to be simply ignorant on your part.”
Absolutely true. But they’re never going to find out a thing if they aren’t willing to talk to gay people and get the facts of our lives from the people who actually know something about it. I’ve had many lengthy conversations with so-called Christians who claim they want to build a bridge, to understand. But understanding to them means they tell me all about my life, export their complete ignorance of the subject (and scripture) to me, tell me what it means to be gay, what they are absolutely certain their particular, peculiar version of god thinks about it, and what must be true about every gay person based upon the fact that they talked to one once, or heard their idiotic pastor claim, or read on a right wing website.
So what is it these people are trying to understand? They can hold as fast as they wish to their own values; I don’t care. I absolutely care when holding fast to their own values really just means holding fast to an ancient, vicious, and durable prejudice, based upon fear, ignorance, and bad translations of vague scripture, which themselves are based upon fear, prejudice, and ignorance. I absolutely care when they hold fast to their own values, and insist that the secular law reflect their purely theological concerns, to the detriment of my life and the lives of millions of people like me.
the same values, based upon the same considerations, justified 1900 years of anti-semitism, leading to the murder of 6 million of my people 70 years ago. The same values and considerations justified slavery, segregation, and the burning of witches and heretics.
so, what exactly is it that you are claiming?
I’m so sorry that the “Christians” you have met have given real Christians a bad name. Yes, scripture speaks of the judgement of homosexuals, but in the same sentence it includes: idolators, liars, fornicators…and the list goes on! The New Testament when Jesus died it washed our sins away and made us white as snow. The Bible says if we believe that Jesus is the Son of God and we believe He is the way to Salvation that if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. A REAL Christian would say there is no difference between a homosexual and a msn and woman living together and sleeping together before marriage and the one who tells lies. God is a loving and merciful God. Only He knows your heart. Only He said,”If you love me, keep my commands!” Well Jesus came to die because that was impossible for all of us to do. I don’t know what makes a person “gay” I don’t care. I just know that loving homosexuals is what God calls us to do as He calls us to love EVERYONE!!
God forgive us all as not one of us is without sin and may He have mercy on us all. God bless you and your family! To God be all glory, honor and praise!
“I’m so sorry that the “Christians” you have met have given real Christians a bad name.” That is a formal logical fallacy, called the “no true scotsman” fallacy. You can read more about it here: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman
The point is that all that is required to be a “true” christian is to say the sinner’s prayer and mean it. No other requirements. It is exactly because people like you, without a single iota of evidence, proof or logic, deem it appropriate to compare homosexuality to all kinds of other “sins” that is painting you as a true christian.
The book you quote from has no more to it than any book from any other religion. In fact, it has no more to it than any other book of fiction that happens to include real people and real places.
Until you can prove:
1) That your god is actually real
2) That your god actually did “write” that book
3) After having taken step 1 and 2, prove that that is actually what your god wants
4) That everyone has to adhere to that vile book,
your judgements made from it remains nothing but raw bigotry based on a myth. Prove it is not a myth, that your claims are rue, and then we can talk about not calling you a bigot.
Because all you have done thus far is a find a book written by a bunch of bronze-age sheepherders that supports your own inherent bigotry and prejudice.
Thank you your comment. From my point of view as a gay man, it’s very ambiguous.
“A REAL Christian would say there is no difference between a homosexual and a msn and woman living together and sleeping together before marriage and the one who tells lies.” I’ve had REAL Christians tell me that my love for my husband is no different from murder, theft, or child molesting. I’ve had REAL Christians tell me that my love for my husband is blessed by God, and given the great life we and I have had, I’d have to agree. So which of you is the REAL Christian?
“God is a loving and merciful God. Only He knows your heart.” Well, a certain class of so-called Christian is neither loving for merciful, just ignorant and dominionist. They also claim to know my heart, my marriage, my sex life, my place in society, what I am entitled to as a citizen and a tax payer and a gay man ,and the status of my relationship with god.
I know you mean what you say kindly, and I appreciate that. But as I said, as long as people who consider themselves Christian presume to judge my life, make up crap about it, and deprive me of my full participation in society in order to satisfy THEIR relationship to their god, we’re going to have conflict.
I just read your response to the Mormon grandma. I agree that yes Frozen had a hidden agenda, but why does that agenda always have to be homosexuality? I agree with you about the movie basically went for love, hope, and acceptance. When I watched it it touched me for my own story.
Here’s my “Let it Go” issue. In 2006-2007 I was a meth addict. I was ashamed and didn’t want anyone knowing. It took two years for me to get help and part of that help was admitting I had a problem to my family and friends. It was humiliating, but I eventually opened up and started talking. I was scared that everyone would turn their backs on me, but instead they were understanding. Upset and worried, but they didn’t treat me the way I had it mapped out in my head. I don’t advertise my past, but if someone wants to talk about it then I will.
I wasn’t the perfect girl everyone thought I was. I had to conceal don’t feel back then. When I finally did let it go, the past became the past and I haven’t looked back. Everyone has an issue that Frozen has made them feel better about.
This is my first time visit at here and i am truly impressed to read all at one place.
i love that this is seen as a acceptance and coming out theme, honestly i never noticed that, i figured it was just about being who you are and being accepted for that, sexuality isn’t the only identifying marker that people bigot against. But then again i was raised to believe that sexuality shouldn’t matter, to me, as a girl who suffered with depression on and off for most of her life, let it go spoke to me a little differently.
Anyway i also wanted to point out that people are saying the song has a ‘gay agenda’ behind it, but did no one notice Wandering Oaken’s trading post and sauna part? where the dude mentions his family and motions to them and you see his family in the sauna…. and there is his kids and another guy?
Wouldn’t that be considered the ‘gay’ part, considering it is referring to same sex parents?
I actually thought it was cool, Disney being all progressive. 🙂
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Not seen the film myself but speaking as a born-again Christian, while I believe homosexual practice is a sin, I also believe it’s wrong to persecute people because of their sexuality.
God is a transformer – as many former homosexuals will testify. No-one outside the faith can be expected to act entirely like those inside it. It is one thing to call homosexual practice a threat to society but quite another to say that about the people.
Nonsense, beginning to end. You’re trying to sound like you’re being magnanimous, but it’s the same old antigay bigotry disguised as sincere religious belief, homohatred in its finest sunday-go-to-meetin’ drag.
thank very much, but I think I would prefer your outright hatred. At least THERE, you’re being honest with me and with yourself.
“while I believe homosexual practice is a sin, I also believe it’s wrong to persecute people because of their sexuality.” Thanks. now tell that to the anti-ex-gay industry which exists solely to make out lives as difficult, dangerous, expensive, and unpleasant as possible.
“God is a transformer – as many former homosexuals will testify.” Where is that parade of former homosexuals? They don’t exist. Exodus ministries claimed it was changing gay to straight for 40 years– hundreds of thousands of people changed through the transforming power of Jesus. TOTAL BULLSHIT– designed to extract money and gain political power. And finally, in the person of its president, Alan Chambers, Exodus admitted that 99.9% of people don’t change. And there are multitudes of gay Christians who feel jesus is in their lives and blesses them. Neither Jesus nor Freud has ever changed on person from gay to straight.
“No-one outside the faith can be expected to act entirely like those inside it.” Thank god for THAT!
“It is one thing to call homosexual practice a threat to society but quite another to say that about the people.” No it is exactly the same thing, and it is here that you reveal your bias for all to see. I am a gay man, and always have been. I am also a law abiding, taxpaying, productive and contributing member of my society, well thought of by family, friends, and colleagues. Exactly how is it that my sex life– of no business to anyone but myself and my husband, and certainly not to goddamned moralizing busybodies and their goddamning churches– is a threat to society?
The threats to society are religious bigotry and religious inspired homohatred– not homosexuality. They always have been. How many lives and families have been destroyed by it? How many lives, resources, and dollars have been lost because of Christian homohatred– the exact homohatred that gave us the 8 years and the twin disasters to the entire world known as the two Presidencies of George bush?
Let me repeat this: “The threats to society are religious bigotry and religious inspired homohatred– not homosexuality.”
OWN IT!!!!!
Holy crap, this reply is sooo beautiful 🙂 And in your original post? What your son said to you was also beautiful, coming out straight to his gay dad and accepting all orientations. This is how we all should be. Bravo to him!
Thank you. I have no patience for uncritical, unthinking, hypocritical bullshit, especially coming from some mealy-mouthed religionist who needs to feel good about the crap coming out of its mouth.,
Please explain why seeing homosexuality as a sin per the christian belief is automatically a bigot?
Please show me where I said that, and we can have a conversation. But for the record, I rarely find anyone who believes homosexuality is a sin who does not also believe a great many of the lies told about us, and who does not believe that our lives should be compromised because of that belief.
If you read the comment to which I responded, you will see that the writer’s first paragraph said that gay people should not be persecuted, and then claimed that what we “do” is a threat to society. He hedged his statement, of course, but nevertheless made it clearly.
I also note that he NEVER responded to defend himself, as if his statement were remotely defensible.
perhaps you can tell me what YOU think? Why don’t you commit to a very modest 200 words or so on your belief about homosexuality being a sin, and let’s see where it take us.
I apparently misread so my bad.
Also I never said that i believed Homosexuality is a sin, I never said I was a Christian.
What I will say is this, you are too polarized to claim you believe in equality. You automatically attack and defend in every statement. You sound like the left version of the right wing tparty nuts.
I wouldn’t have responded back either you gave enough ammo to make anyone who agrees with his view point to say see how he/they defame God he/they don’t care. Most people lump groups together automatically.
If you are the voice of evol I will steer clear of it from now and stop re-promoting and re-posting.
Simply put what I do believe is that all should be treated as equal no matter what their race, faith, sexuality or whatever factor we choose to attack someone is based on.
Next try to make a simple response to someone where you write to have a conversation instead of simply attacking.
What you wrote to me comes of as attack, defend attack defend write something pre-attacking what you believe that I believe.
This takes us no where because I see no reason to continue reading your blog or responses. I know now why your blog was warned against.
I have no idea what you are referring to, or to whom you are speaking. I searched through the comments here, trying to find someone named Larry Freeman. There isn’t one. I’m somewhat dyslexic, so it is possible I missed it, but I don’t think so.
So perhaps you can explain things, if indeed your response is to me. As far as I can tell, what you call attacks, I call no longer being willing to accept that crap that so-called Christians have been dealing out to us for 2000 years. I offer facts, logic, experience. If you don’t like the way I say it, perhaps you can understand that appeasement of bigotry is on longer on the table.
Because beliefs are not facts, they do not indicate provable reality. Thus, for PRACTICAL intents and purposes you are simply hiding your personal prejudices (bigotry) behind what is, again for practical purposes, thumbsuckery. When you can prove that your beliefs are based on something actual, then we can talk about not calling it personal bigotry disguised and excused by religion.
OK. Not trying to judge what you just said but if there are “former homosexuals” that can agree with what you just said, then obviously they probably weren’t true homosexuals or they are shoving their feelings for the same sex way down deep in the pit of their souls so they can feel accepted by society. I hate the gay conversion therapies and the organizations that strive to try to change the lgbt community by using only one or two strategies, taking away the one thing that makes them feel like part of society and, making them feel worthless, making them feel like if they don’t change their “sinful lifestyle” they will go to hell. Why is it that people only pick and choose maybe one or two sins and use it against others who are different from others but when they are confronted by other sins that they themselves have committed they always say “well we’re not questioning me”. I find that utterly ridiculous. If people are going to judge others by their sins then they should also be judging themselves because they aren’t above others who are “different”. We have all sinned. Some worse than others but we have all sinned so the point I’m trying to get at is that we should not be calling a certain group of people out simply because of who they are. That’s also what I believe the man above was trying to state. Love and acceptance of all solves most if not all of our problems.
“while I believe homosexual practice is a sin, I also believe it’s wrong to persecute people because of their sexuality.”
Since by believing that our innate capacity for love and intimacy is sin, worthy of death and damnation, and then articulating that in prejudice so we all know how little you think of our ability to love, you did persecute people because of their sexuality, your entire post is a dishonest and abusive experience in ego.
“as many former homosexuals will testify. ”
There are none. However, there are millions of ex-homophobes who have been transformed by God, healed of their hatred and contempt for GLBTQ people.
“No-one outside the faith can be expected to act entirely like those inside it. ”
It is unlike that you are actually inside Christianity. The belief you have, ‘homosexuality is sin’, is evil, it bears only evil fruit, and according to Christ, that means you are a false teacher and that He does not know you.
“It is one thing to call homosexual practice a threat to society but quite another to say that about the people.”
Your lie is sin. Please repent, or admit that deep down, you reject God even more than atheists do.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Reblogged this on The way of life is wonderful and commented:
This is a wonderful response. Gay people have kids too and their family should be as much respected as the traditional “nuclear” family.
Here’s another excellent response to that infamous blog post, and it’s written from a gay Mormon dad married to a woman (and who also happens to be a family therapist):
http://www.joshweed.com/2014/03/my-response-to-well-behaved-mormon-woman.html?m=1
Well said. I find it a little coincidental that you asked about her actions if her grandchildren are gay, seeing as her daughter is.
Wow, just Wow!! This was stated perfectly! Thank you!
Being LDS myself I was appalled at the way that woman ripped apart people. I believe God loves everyone. I have so many wonderful friends that are LGBT and I love them… I don’t agree with their lifestyle but why is that even my business, so I don’t make it my business.
I also thought this song connected with me, I had been trying to figure out what I should do with school and career goals for a long time. “Let It Go” spoke to me in ways I have never had a song speak to me before. Almost being finished with my RN I felt like it was saying “alright girl you have no more boundaries, you’ve made it, and you can break free.” I think this song can speak to anyone in any situation, that is why it has touched so many. So Katherine Skaggs if you’re reading this… find the good in this crazy, ever changing world. I hope you can find peace and solace. God bless us all!
I appreciate your caring response, but I absolutely HATE people swaying “I don’t agree with their lifestyle.” All that means is that you don’t agree that they have the right to live their lives authentically, as they are made. If it means something else, please explain it to me.
Nope–sounds like you’ve got it.
Thanks.
Actually, since she hasn’t responded, I will take the liberty of responding for her. I find the condescending smarminess of the remark offensive, and I’m tired of listening to people make it and think that they are safe from someone disagreeing with THEM.
“I don’t agree with their lifestyle” is a cop-out, a lie, an obfuscation. (The word “lifestyle” is another, similar obfuscation. maybe i’ll get to it). It is an attempt to sound nice by saying something that has no meaning but sounds like it does, but which also deliberately obscures the sayer’s actually feelings on the subject. As I said, it just dresses nicer and has a better haircut.
One can disagree with an opinion– absolutely. “Pizza is good” is an opinion. You can agree with it, disagree with it, or qualify either to your heart’s delight. One cannot disagree with the fact that such a thing as pizza exists. You cannot disagree with pizza– not without sounding like either a comedian or an idiot– or a fundamentalist Christian.
Homosexuality is a fact, not an opinion. Homosexuality exists. People who are homosexual, and who have not been turned against themselves by poisonous self-hatred or poisonous religious belief, live their lives as homosexual people. That’s also a fact. Neither of these are things you can “disagree” with. You can disagree with the opinions implied by them– that homosexuals ought to be able to exist, or ought to be able to live their lives as homosexuals.
Why do you have a life, but I have a lifestyle? And it is a life, not the triviality of a mere lifestyle decision. A lifestyle is dressing up in a space costume and going to comics conventions. A lifestyle is dressing up as a minister, going to church, and looking for the speck in others’ eyes while ignoring the beam in your own. You can stop it or start it at will, with no consequence.
Being gay isn’t something that one can “disagree” with. It’s what we ARE, just like heterosexuals. Homosexual behavior is what homosexuals do, just like heterosexuals. It is how we love and live in a meaningful and fulfilling way. When we gay people deny our true selves, it is emotional and spiritual death, a death that will likely manifest itself physically. That’s why some gay kids kill themselves, why some gay adults abuse drugs and alcohol or have lifelong psychological problems.
Disagreeing with homosexuality is as idiotic as saying, “I disagree with heterosexuality.”
All “disagreement” does is boil down my life to mere behavior, which you feel free to disparage as not being “God’s best.”. You would be offended if gay people did that to you. And you would be outraged– as we are– if someone tried to use the coercive power of the state to enforce that upon YOUR life, to make your life as difficult, unpleasant, dangerous, and expensive as possible. And you would be highly cynical– at least– if they told you they were doing it out of “love” for someone they don’t know and know nothing about.
So what, exactly, is it that you “disagree” with?
Let me repeat this: Homosexuality is a fact, not an opinion. Homosexuality exists. People who are homosexual, and who have not been poisoned against themselves by self-hatred or religious belief, live their lives as homosexual people. That’s also a fact. Neither of these are things you can “disagree” with. You can disagree with the opinions implied by them– that homosexuals ought to be able to exist, or ought to be able to live their lives as homosexuals, without legal or social consequence, exactly as do heterosexuals.
If you disagree with THAT, then you should say so. But that makes you sound like a bigot, doesn’t it?
Am I allowed to disagree with YOUR lifestyle, whatever I determine that to be, and however irrelevant it is to the conduct of my life? Am I allowed to use the force of the law to disadvantage you, your family, your children, and your faith, to make your life difficult, expensive, and unpleasant, to express MY disapproval of YOUR sinful ways (contrary to your Founder’s word on THAT subject)? Can I perhaps use the coercive power of the state to ensure that you experience the consequences of my religious beliefs, and declare that your family is not entitled to the legal protections that mine is, because I don’t approve, or think my god doesn’t approve? Can I call your God to the stand in a court trial, and depose him as to his beliefs on the subject, or do I merely have to take your word for it that you and your book are accurate representations of his feelings?
When you say that you “disagree with the lifestyle”, one thing you are clearly saying is that you believe homosexuality is a choice. If so, then so is heterosexuality. Did you choose that? Am I allowed to disagree with YOUR choice? Can I subject you to legal and social penalties for your choice?
Being gay is not a choice. The only choice for any gay person is to live authentically as we are made, as fully as possible, or to live according to the expectations and beliefs of people who know nothing about homosexuality, nothing about gay people, and in my opinion, damned little about god, morality, or goodness.
How do I know being gay is not a choice? Because I’m gay, and have been my entire life. I knew when I was THREE. I just didn’t know what to call it. But I KNEW! I have the testimonies of millions of people just like me, testimony over CENTURIES. I have the testimonies of both the catholic and the Mormon churches, as antigay as they come. I have the informed scientific opinion of nearly every single professional, social, scientific, and medical organization in the civilized west, if not the entire world.
If you disagree with THAT, then you should say so. But that not only makes you sound like an uninformed idiot, it makes you sound like a ignorant bigot, doesn’t it?
Because what do YOU have? Something an ignorant and bigoted pastor told you because He thinks he understands something that was written by bronze aged goat herders 2000 years ago. You have something you know nothing about, have never really thought about, and I frankly believe, you use to justify your wholly imaginary superiority as a “person of faith”, a moral person, and a human being.
But you call it “disagreeing with the lifestyle”, because it allows you to feel good about yourself when you ought to feel ignorant, ashamed, and penitent.
So, ONE MORE TIME:
What exactly do you mean when you say: “I disagree with the lifestyle.” And please, don’t tell me you “love” me, and your disagreement is really your completely misguided notion of love. I’m afraid I don’t find Christian “love” to be any kind of excuse for Christian behavior, let alone christianity’s 2000 year old jihad against our right to exist, to live our lives, and to be treated equally under the law.
Excellent takedown of the bigoted “lifestyle” dog whistle. Bravo.
Hey, Ant, funny meeting you here. 🙂
Thanks…..B
BRAVO!!!
Thanks. I don’t know if it rates a bravo, but it is certainly the truth.
Excuse the late response… Ben, I think being gay is often a choice because I made that choice myself. And seeing as you can quote your personal experience as valid, so can I. It sounds like determining your sexual orientation was easy for you. For others the “born this way” mantra doesn’t apply.
And bully for you for calling me a bigot (because I disagree with your blanket “born this way” argument). But be careful. You may do the LGBT cause harm by feeling you can apply black and white labels to anyone who doesn’t share your perspective on this or any other topic. There are many people, religious and otherwise, who don’t know what to think about gay people and the rights they are fighting for. You labeling anyone a “bigot” who is trying to understand homosexuality, while still holding to their own values, seems to be simply ignorant on your part. It takes time to move mountains. Your ranting may work to reinforce old stereotypes. I’d take the “love” anyone offers as a sign they are trying to move in the direction you want them to.
so are we going to hear a response from you? Or was this just a hit-and-run?
Ben
This is some of the best, most succinct and to-the-point writing on the subject I have ever seen. Your analysis is both readable and in depth. As a straight person who always find it hard to articulate the exact error in this type of “I love you but I hate you” thinking, this is a great resource. Keep writing man. You are making an indisputable difference.
J
Thanks. It’s why I write– notes like yours.
I don’t write for the people who are irretrievably poisoned by hate, ignorance, stupidity, fear, a pathological need to feel superior, a lust for power and money, or by the fear and hatred of their own dark desires. That’s the definition of irretrievably poisoned.
I write for the people of good will who need things explained to them to go to the right side. I write for people on our side who don’t quite have the tools they need to talk to others.
“I don’t agree with their lifestyle”
I am repulsed by your egotism. It is not your place to disagree, or agree, with my lifestyle – where I work, what movies I watch, what foods I eat, what books I read, how early or late I go to bed or get up.
It is even less your place to disagree or agree with my innate capacity for love and my sixteen year relationship.
Get over yourself.
First of you, I applaud you sir.
Secondly I did not see this message as gay at all, yes I see that it can it can apply that, but I think that’s the thing. The song and theme is so damn versatile! I related it from a completely different perspective.
Coming from someone who has suffered from depression, PTSD, anxiety and stress disorders all my life, the themes and song “Let it go” reached out to me and I felt connected to this song in the sense that I don’t have to hide who I am anymore or be afraid of people’s judgements, what’s happened to me has happened and I should accept it and not care about people who will judge me for it.
That’s what I took from the movie, so that’s my two cents. 🙂
Ky, this is the message I took from it as well. I’ve lived my life with an anxiety disorder that makes some days impossible for me. I also am working through PTSD and this song had me crying in the theater. It is so versatile and means so much to so many people.
I’m Mormon and when I heard about Kathryn Skaggs’ blog post, I was so ashamed to know that I share the same religion as her. There is so much sorrow in this life, the last thing we need is a person claiming to be of God causing more trauma and hate. I know many Mormons in my community who disagree with the hurtful sentiments she shared.
I would ask Ms. Skaggs that in the future, before she decides to open her big mouth and claim to represent an entire religion of individuals, that she remember Christ’s words, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” When I say this, I’m not saying that people who live their lives differently from how I live mine are sinners, what I’m saying is that before a person judges another they need to check themselves and realize that to judge another is a sin. No one in this life can make a judgement call like that, and being a “well-behaved” Christian woman, Ms. Skaggs should know that.
This is such a beautiful post and I want to thank the author for the eloquence with which he expressed himself. Beautifully written, sir.
You sound like a lovely person, Kathryn, but surely you realize that K Skaggs’ position reflects THE OFFICIAL DOGMA OF YOUR RELIGION. Individual Mormons may dissent from that because they are decent people, but in doing so they have to ignore tenets of their faith.
The irony is that Kathryn Skaggs has a lesbian daughter who was very much hurt by her mom’s blog. I loved this article and hope it brings Ms. Skaggs closer to her daughter. Thanks for writing this.
*standing ovation*
I have read the thing Ms. Skaggs wrote, and I wished she would have unlocked the commentary. I wanted to write to her more or less what you did.
It seems we share the same opinion, and I’m glad not everyone is so close-minded and obsessed as that woman.
I live in a country – in which, I’ll keep that to myself – where same-sex marriage is still illegal, and where homosexuals are treated terribly. I am still in school, and am a head of a Japanese Culture Club. In my Club, there is a boy who came to me at the end if first meeting. Cas – the boy – waited for everybody to exit and when I asked him what’s troubling him, he asked me if it would be alright if he kept coming to our Club’s meetings. Upon seeing my confusion, he came out and told me he’s gay, and that that has caused problems for him in the past – that he would not be allowed to take part in theater activities because of his “bad influence” on other kids. Bullshit, pardon my language. Cas is the sweetest boy – he’s helpful and polite and quiet; he’s also very sensitive and sweet, to the point of bringing us little somethings like origami flowers to decorate the class once in a while. The reason he has problems like that is because of such closed, FROZEN people like this woman – people, who would not let him and those like him be who they are.
So thank you for speaking up, sir. I really appreciate it – on behalf of Cas and everybody else.
I happen to be acquaintance with the people who wrote that song. Kristen wanted things to be about family & Love. The Love of sisters and to show little girls that they shouldn’t define themselves by their relationships to others, but to simply be themselves & then to love others for who they are. That that is the best kind of love in the world.
I pity this “grandma” who chose to see something negative in a great film (as apposed to the Stockholm syndrome version found in Beauty and the Beast – also a story about seeing/loving the person inside). I also pity her because she clearly is not living the doctrines of her faith. I too am LDS (Mormon) and last time I checked the greatest commandment was Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Glad your kids like the movie!
Hola! I go to BYU and am surrounded by Mormons (I’m not mormon myself). They all love Frozen! Though this lady is totally off point, I don’t think you need to bring her religion into it. Honestly, most mormon’s i know think the whole prop 8 stuff was ridiculous. This lady is just one of the crazies that every religion accrues. Though I don’t agree with Mormon’s view of homosexuality I do appreciate their increasing acceptance of the LGBT community. For such a conservative religion to put out short videos specifically about suicidal LGBT students and the need to choose love over hate is a big step for the Mormons (obviously a long way to go). here’s the video if you’re curious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqkaWTM_vK8&feature=share&list=UUkgqJoLeqQ2H2HFNPGFQkVg They also have what’s called an expanding religion–meaning big changes are made over time….so who knows maybe one day we’ll all be able to live in harmony and love who we want without judgement. If it did happen tons would leave the church but that’s pretty routine with them.
Except for how changes happen over time in the Church is God gives revelation to the prophet and the prophet tells everyone else. In the case of LGBT* folk, the Proclamation on the Family very clearly states God’s supposed position on gender and gender roles. They are even referred to as essential. So, in order for the LGBT* community to find full fellowship in the Church, God would have to change His mind about what gender roles are, what part they play in the eternal plan, and the nature of sin, And then tell the prophet. Who would then have to tell the people about hey, guess what, God said JK about that whole essential thing–but you can still TOTALLY rely on other things He’s said ’cause they are still TOTALLY true and unchangeable and eternal. That possibility seems remote, don’t ya think? Not to mention absurd. It does not matter how friendly the Church or individual members talk about the LGBT* community, as long as a central tenet of the Church is that LGBT* people have to stay celibate and die alone, marry against their authentic selves, or get out, no progress is made on this issue. Pretty talk doesn’t matter. Only systemic change matters–and that would be an upheaval of the very foundation of the Church’s stated beliefs. Quite a quandry.
So, you believe that women are chattel and do not deserve the right to speak in a church as well? or did God change his mind on that one? I guess you also believe that women should be married off in exchange for livestock and that people should be sold into slavery and such.. after all God never changes his mind right? This is the problem with religion, it’s man made and changes with the whims of man. God is created in man’s image… when will you figure that one out.
“Though this lady is totally off point, I don’t think you need to bring her religion into it.”
She did that all by herself.
sgreco is on target, Kathryn’s religion would not have been mentioned at all except for the fact that she defines herself with it as a “Well-behaved Mormon Woman”.
true. I guess what I meant is that she’s not a well behaved mormon–mormon’s wouldn’t tolerate her actions. So that should be noted.
You don’t know mormon’s very well then. She is(was) also a prop8 activist, look up the mormon churches involvement in prop8. She is right in line with what they want (official position).
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Very, VERY well said! You have a smart son and he has a smart Dad.
I was captivated throughout the entire post, but that final line really got me. Bravo, friend. Bravo.
Good grief. I wanted to run a bristle brush through my head to clear that woman’s nonsense out of my brain. Just goes to show people can read anything they want into something if their bias is strong enough.