My younger brother is gay. Gay as laughter. Gay as the day is long. One of the finest moments in my life, and one of the greatest compliments anyone has ever paid me, was the day he felt safe to come out to me. He’s in his mid-30s now, but he’ll always be my little brother. And man, I love that kid. He’s brilliant, he’s funny, and he’s kind. And he just married a phenomenal man.
I was always predisposed to like his husband because, y’know, he’s my brother’s partner and therefore has automatic status in my heart. The wonderful bonus is that I really like him. He’s brilliant, he’s funny, and he’s kind. He’s a cool dude to hang out with. He also stood by my brother like a rock when my brother had a life-threatening cancer that cost him his left eye.
They married in May. It was a wonderful ceremony in which I was honored to stand by my brother, supporting him in his vows. My eyes teared up like they always do at weddings. I had the joy of watching two people commit to a lifetime together. It filled my heart.
Folks started posting photos from the wedding on Facebook, and I proudly reposted photos of the ceremony (with me looking awesome in my new suit, of course). Shortly after that, I received this message from a FB friend:
“Hey David, I am removing you from my friends list…sorry man, that latest post is way over the top! Homosexuals joining in “Holy” matrimony…I don’t think so??? The Holy Bible speaks out against homosexuality and speaks highly of Holy matrimony between a man and a woman. It’s nothing more than a slap in the face to those who choose God’s Word, for homosexuals to join in a Holy marriage. I’m only defriending you so I don’t have to look at your anti-God stuff anymore…nothing personal!”
Wow.
This came from a man I used to work with. A man I respect in his dedication to his family, and in his desire to live a moral and ethical life. A man with whom I have had some very interesting religious debates. He has become a Baptist preacher since we last spoke in person, and I suppose that makes this message unsurprising.
But, I was still surprised. I was taken aback. I needed a moment. I was hurt.
I was inclined to hurl some expletives in his direction.
But, only for a moment. He’s not really that important of a person in my life. I had actually at times grown rather tired of his Facebook postings…I don’t have a great need for fundamentalist dogma in my day. So, on some level, good riddance.
I sent him a letter at his church, expressing my disappointment in his withdrawal. I had a few friends read the letter before I sent it, to make sure that it didn’t contain too much bile. I’m not surprised that I haven’t heard back from him.
The situation got me thinking: What if this hadn’t been about my brother’s wedding, but about MY wedding? What if it hadn’t been from a distant friend, but from a beloved family member?
Ouch.
How many millions of gay kids (and adults) have had that exact thing happen to them? How many millions more will in the future?
I’m sorry.
I’m sorry for that pain. I’m sorry for that rejection. I’m sorry for that isolation.
I’m straight. Straight as a yardstick. Straight as an arrow. I am in your corner. If I could take on that pain for you, I would.
I love you.
If you’re gay, I think that’s wonderful, and I’m truly happy for you. I wish you all the love and joy in the world.
If you’re straight, I think that’s wonderful, and I’m truly happy for you. I wish you all the love and joy in the world. And I charge you, I charge you to imagine the above scenario played out with YOU as the target of rejection. Imagine the people closest to you telling you, essentially, “You are fundamentally flawed and I want nothing to do with you.” Our LGBTQ brothers and sisters face this everyday. Please don’t forget that.
The poor, misguided soul is no longer in my life. That’s okay. My brother and his husband still are. I just hung out with my brother a few weeks ago, and it was a blast. He’s brilliant, he’s funny, and he’s kind. I couldn’t be prouder to call him my brother. I love him, and love wins, period.
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I’ve given up on Christiantity because of how people twist it and corrupt it. But you sir, speak of love for fellow man. If that person is different then you, you overlook and appreciate them as the person to whom they are. That shows a lot of you character. You speak of how terrific your brother is, I think your brother is so fortunate to have you as a sibling.
heres the thing, you will never change some people period!Some people are not going to be for gay marriage and that is that. There is nothing that you can do about that. He is who he is and believes what he believes and there is nothing you can do about that either. So because of that he chose not to continue being friends with you, so what !really if he was that much of a friend then he wouldn’t have removed you from facebook. But cant you take a minute to understand that he also strongly believes in marriage should be between a man and a woman only. I dont see why it is that big of a deal. You believe what you want and let others believe what they want and if it is not the same dang belief then who gives a crap! people are all not the same, we all are not going to always believe in the same causes or what not. I respect people are who they are and believe what they believe. But it is not wrong if people believe in gay marriage or not it is only their opinion and you don’t have to like other peoples opinions you might have to shut it and listen to someone else s opinion on the matter but you don’t have to agree or even like it. So over hearing about this it is not even funny. Believe what you want and move on with you life already.
You’re right that anti-gay people shouldn’t be forced to change their beliefs, it would be just as wrong if they would do the same to pro-gay people.
But never have I heard anyone hating or befriending someone because he/she is anti-gay. Never. It’s always the other way around.
The point is being open to others, and it works both ways. People can be friends even if they don’t approve something the other does.
Your message of acceptance is one that should be spread to everyone but if you think intolerance is a one way street you are wrong. My family is divided on this issue and many others, and neither side ie willing to look past their differences. I know that my family is not unique. When words like never or always start coming out they only tear us farther apart instead of bringing us all back together.
You’re right, that part was unjustified, came too strongly and was beside the point. I’m sorry about that. It’s just I’ve never heard it go other way, while of course it happens. Hopefully your family can get over about trying to change each others opinion because for what you mentioned, that is never going to happen.
Myself, I’ve actually never even met anyone who is seriously, strongly against gays. I do know that my mom and her sister have very strongly divided opinion about women priesthood and lgbt, something that is very important to them and it’s sure that they will are never going to agree about it. They know it and that’s why they decided to respect each others and never mention it. You could never guess that they would have such thing between them, so well do they come together, laugh and enjoy each others company, that even I had no idea about it until my mom mentioned it last year. Never could have I guess that by myself.
I just wish more people could act this way.
Wonderful article.
Just a point. Heterosexuals raise many more gay children that homosexuals do.
As far as I know, there are certain things that can be lifted out from the Bible in direct context.
Eg:
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
Hebrews 8:12
There are some verses however are written in context to the situation and people intended for.
Eg: many of Paul’s letters are city/people specific-BUT he always talks about the Grace of God that transforms lives and that Sin* has No dominion over Christians, SIN* is a noun and not a verb in many of his letters.
One thing for sure, without the need to quote any verse, is that MY Jesus is one who stood by prostitutes, tax collectors, the sick and ‘sinners’. He only reserved the strongest words like ” You brood of vipers” for the self-righteous and outward-performing Pharisees and Sadducees who knew the commandments/laws inside out.
The 10 commandments were given to prove that man is imperfect and thus needs a savior. He came , He died, He rose…IT IS FINISHED.
There is NOTHING we can do to ADD or UNDO what Christ has done for Sinners on the cross. If you preach sin is greater than the cross…….please go back to Sunday School.
Oh for god’s sake iMec you have totally missed the point. Get your head out of the fairy tale called the bible and get real and get a life.
Actually, iMec got the point, Kate. He basically said, in a roundabout way, “Judge not lest ye be judged” or, to put it even more plainly, “If you claim that being gay is going to mean someone goes to hell, you’re wrong.”
At least that’s how it read to me.
Well, here’s one Baptist preacher who is deeply offended by your “friends” attitude and behavior! I would have been delighted to perform your brother’s ceremony and offer God’s blessing on his relationship.
Wow, Randle. I’m not even gay and I want to show you my appreciation for being a good human being. Kudos!
To call yourself a preacher and offer “God’s blessing” on that which He has declared an abomination makes you a horrible preacher and a hypocritical human being. I feel sorry for the people in your congregation knowing that you don’t believe God says what He means and means what He says. “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.” (Isaiah 5:20)
Go away. You don’t own god or truth and you have no standing to tell any preacher that what he is preaching is wrong.
If it’s not based on the Word of God, I sure do! 🙂
Can we please stop baiting the troll? Clearly Andy wants attention, and is flamebaiting anybody he can to keep the conversation going… You all will never see eye to eye on the issue, so stop trying to argue each other over to the opposing side. Agree to disagree, and go worship God as you do. None of us have (hopefully) heard God’s voice personally, so until we die, it’s all just conjecture anyway, and we’ll find out who’s right and who’s wrong when God sees fit to call us home. Let’s just leave it at that, and move on.
Andy, no need to reply to me, as I will not respond to you any further after this. If you feel the need to get the last word, so be it, I will not fight you on it. I’m not that insecure that I need to argue the point any farther than this. Have a blessed life.
Yes and “baiting the troll” is so full of love and non-judgmental. You can thank the wordpress folks for notifying me everytime someone responds to any of my comments, haha! I will have a blessed life, thanks!
You’re welcome. 🙂
I knew you’d write back because people like you who say “this is the last time I’m writing” never keep their word. Thanks for the confirmation. And this IS my last communication. 🙂
Well, then I hope you’ll take this as such. 🙂 A troll is a term used for someone who antagonizes others. It’s not a judgement, nor a term of hate. You are someone who is passionate and responding to multiple people in a contrary way to the original post, playing devil’s advocate as it were. Perhaps you have never been informed of what the origin of the term is, but I didn’t want you to think that I had used it as anything other than you being an antagonist. Nothing at all physical or in any other way was implied.
So, andydbrown, when did you have that last conversation with God? I’m curious as to what it is like to speak directly to a divinity and have them answer you. Because unless that happened, then you have NO RIGHT to claim that you know what your God intended or how he will judge people. And, by the way, your quote can apply to you and the others who preach hatred while calling it God’s Will.
Yes, I speak with God daily and He speaks to me through His Word. You speak of “a divinity” because the concept of One God is beyond you. “My sheep hear My voice. I know them and they follow Me.” (John 10:27) It is possible to know God through Jesus and His Word ONLY.
Right folks, we now know that Andy has a direct line to God but none of the rest of us do, so we’d better let him get on with his telephone calls to God. Personally, I don’t need to sit all day waiting for God’s word. Like many of you, the Spirit speaks to us all the time when in certain situations.
Andy, you are a sick, twisted human being with no ability to think for yourself You believe that God talks to you?
“If you talk to God, you are praying. If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia.” – Thomas Szaz
Nice to see you’re so “open-minded”, haha!
And you *are* open-minded? Could have fooled me.
Let’s say you’re a smoker. You can’t help it, nicotine is the most addictive chemical known to man. It’s not really your fault. You were genetically pre-dispositioned to chemical addiction to nicotine also. Other people are perfectly able, and within their right, to disapprove of your habit yet still be able to be your friend and love you as a fellow human. They can dislike your public actions of smoking and putting your smoke all over them and their food and their clothes and car and everything they have. Love is not total blind acceptance of every single action you do, rather, an understanding of who you are deep inside and what you may be capable of achieving. Others are not required to take up smoking themselves, nor allow smoking in their presence, nor even discuss your love and preference of smoking with you at your every whim.
Basically…keep your smoking to yourself. The majority of people don’t like it, and don’t care. They acknowledge that you have a right and freedom to smoke and do whatever else you want to do to yourself, just… DON’T FORCE IT ON EVERYONE ELSE or in their faces all the time. When discussed like this, the issue is very simple.
Also, Try to divorce your personal affection for your brother from criticisms of his behavior. Just because someone says they don’t like what your brother does, doesn’t mean they are calling him a terrible person or attacking him personally. You are too sensitive and/or have a chip on your shoulder. Get over it. People are always going to criticize you, your family, your friends, everyone, all the time, no matter who we are, or what we do. It’s part of being human. You’re being a drama-king over something that was extraordinarily average and not worth worrying about.
Ghent’s reply is idiotic; comparing a bad habit, to one’s sexual orientation. How stupid. And, Ghent also tells gay people to be themselves, but..only away from everybody else. How idiotic. This is someone who is speaking like an idiot from the 1960’s. But, if Ghent wants the world to react that way, then I say…Okay. The hetero’s have to do the same thing then. THEY have to NOT show their “habit” of being a parent, and being straight married…so no weddings in public. And on and on. This is such a dumb opinion…I’m just sorry I won’t ever get those moments it took me to read it….really.
Fasinating metaphor. Do you happen to have any studies on the deleterious effects of second-hand homosexuality? Seriously. This may be the most ridiculous comparison I’ve heard in many years.
Yes. Do you realize you pay a hundred or so dollars in tax each year specifically to offset the fact that homosexuality is 40 TIMES more infectious than typical sex? http://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth has several pages. Those diseases are then transmitted to others. Further, they are seeking to say this is harmless, and encouraging free sexuality.
HIV is epidemic primarily due to gay sex practices. 1 in 5 has it. 1 in 5 young gay men has contracted hepatitis by age 22. Nearly half a million died from AIDS, and 1.5 million people in America have it. The rate amongst gay men in America is higher than the general population’s rate in 3rd world Africa.
This is because gay sex practices that involve things not designed by nature to work together, and because it often involves fecal contact, thus the Hepatitis rate.
A gay person, or a smoker, or a single mother who was once a prostitute–any could be my best friend. I would attend their weddings. But we are in a quite intentional campaign of denial that homosexuality is a cost to society. And we are in denial in saying two human mates are not in a wondrously unique situation. Yes, gays can love each other, truly. So could two twin brothers. Marriage has never been given straights and denied gays. It has been granted mates and denied non-mates, consistently. I cannot marry my best friend. Not because we are gay–we are not. But because it defeats the purpose of marriage to grant it to any of the NUMEROUS unions that could benefit from a civil contract coincidentally called “marriage.”
Kevin, have you ever worked in any way in a GU/HIV clinic. I helped to open the one I worked in in London (that’s London England Kevin). We had over 2,000 new patients the first year, of them only 35 were gay, all the rest were hetrosexuals. Do get your figures right and not from some anti-gay propaganda newsheet.
“Do you realize you pay a hundred or so dollars in tax each year…”
I do not pay any dollars in tax each year: I am one of the 98% of people in the world who is not American, dearie.
“Further, they are seeking to say this is harmless”
Rubbish. The CDC do not encourage unsafe sex for anyone of any sexual orientation. By the way – since your only concern (which I doubt) is disease transmission, does that mean that lesbians are better people than heterosexuals? The rate of STI transmission between female partners is microscopic. Or are you simply looking for statistical reasons to justify the fact that you feel vastly uncomfortable thinking about two men having sex? If that’s the case, I suggest you stop doing it. Homophobes seem to spend more time thinking about gay sex than gay people do. It’s quite telling.
You also forgot to mention Leda, that in most GU/HIV clinics there are more hetrosexual people attending. By the way, like you Leda, I’m not American either. Strange how many people just presume we are.
”This is because gay sex practices that involve things not designed by nature to work together…”
Majority of ”things not designed for nature” is bullshit. First of all, there is no rule in evolution not to do that. Secondly, it happens in hetero sex too and people enjoy it just as much.
”it defeats the purpose of marriage to grant it to any of the NUMEROUS unions that could benefit from a civil contract coincidentally called “marriage.””
Marriage are made because tow people love each others. Not granting that is like saying ”oh, we can’t allow you two to show your love, it would just make everyone else love less valuable”. We’re talking about emotions, not cash market. Showing emotions doesn’t cause inflation on them.
Hi Ghent, Thank you for sharing your perspective. Your analogy is of course, flawed. If you are going to be more accurate it would be: so say you have a brother who is a smoker who likes Salem, and a Marlboro smoker says that its a sin. And you have a picture of your brother at the most important time of his life, and he has a Salem packet in the background… and the Marlboro guy then tells you he can’t stand the sight of it, or you and rejects you.
That would be the more accurate analogy. But smoking as an analogy for one’s sexual orientation and romantic life is pretty stupid.
David’s brother’s behavior was not at question. The pictures were not of him behaving homosexually. The man took offense because of who David’s brother was.
I don’t know you… but I have to tell you that if I had to pick someone to be MY brother, I would pick ad “drama king” like David over an insensitive, selfish egomaniac such as your post makes you out to be.
But thanks for giving an alternative point of view. Several hundred thousand people happen to disagree. Oh….welll. Get over it.
I feel disappointed that some can be so confident with their ignorance.
I see what you’re saying – you will accept everyone, so long as they “know their place”. Got it. It’s called oppression.
What an idiotic comparison to smoking. Gayness does not cause cancer, and even of a gay couple made out in front of you, you would not go home with “secondhand gay”. It is so ridiculous seeing these posts comparing harmful things like that or even murder two people loving each other. It is so NOT what Jesus would do or say, it’s pathetic.
Secondhand smoke kills. Secondhand witnessing of two guys kissing in the street means nothing to me and doesn’t impact my life or health in any way.
They aren’t forcing anything on anyone. Strangely enough, the people who seem to do the most forcing of sexuality on unwilling participants are STRAIGHT MEN. Funny how that works, innit? It never fails to amaze me how many of the people who scream about having something forced on them come from the one demographic slice that actually DOES statistically speaking, do waaaay more forcing of sex on anyone else than any other group of people in human history. Yeah yeah, there’s nice straight men out there. But statistically, they do way more than their share of forcing of sex on anyone, however nice you or your husband may be.
And the lion’s share of the whining of being forced to see two women hold hands or something comes from them! Incredible.
Mote/plank, dude. You are in the most fragile of glass houses right now if you are accusing people of forced sex acts based on their gender and orientation.
Great article… As an affirming pastor I get to deal with this crap all the time. Helping people that are getting married understand that the Bible actually does not condemn gays and lesbians, or their loving relationships (it DOES condemn rape, and sexual abuse of all forms which is what the texts are actually about).
The reality is that the folks who are so convinced that being LGBTQ is sinful are committing grave sin in what they teach about God, His character, and His Word. IN fact, would use the term heretic, and false teacher, for them.
God made us all to be in relationships that are mutual, loving, and positive no matter the genders of the folks in them. Time to move on.
Thank you so much for that. sigh~
Consistently the only “bad” thing from the Bible people love to bring up is the homosexuality issue. But there are so many other “crimes” from the Bible people have committed. Why aren’t all of those issues brought up? I am not going to spill anything hateful here. I am only going to say what I feel. First of all people please bring it to your attention this is the 21st century. Second there are religious scholars that have went on record and will tell the Bible in many ways is not accurately put together. For one thing there are many books/chapters missing. Third since this is the 21st century things do change with the passage of time and how society is developing as a whole. Fourth if you want to persist with your dark ages mind set I will gladly see if I can get together witha group of like minded people and happily give you a one way ticket back there.
Loved this. Thank you for standing up for your brother and people like him – I am a bisexual woman, and have been rejected for my relationships and lifestyle. It never fails to hurt.
“Nothing personal.” Yeah.
About three weeks before my mother died in July, I invited my housekeeper of seven years out for a thank you lunch for helping me get my mother’s house ready for rental. (I’m disabled and my housekeeper has been a source of support through the years of isolation that results from friend and sometimes family flight that happens when someone becomes debilitatingly ill.)
I extended the invitation because I knew I’d forget to give her a carnival glass pitcher that belonged to my Mom, but doing something out of the ordinary would make me remember to give it to her. (She’d had to bid on the carnival glass bowl and glasses of her grandmother, which we learned when she saw Mom’s pitcher when we were cleaning out her house, and both my mother had been appalled by that.)
At any rate, she declined and I decided either she really was busy or I had stepped over the line of our business relationship. As it turns out, she dropped me as a client as my mother lay dying (she also cleaned for my mother before my mother moved in with me about five months before her death) because her husband had convinced her that my inviting her to lunch was me trying to “turn her.” The hubris! The inhumanity!
From there, the religious BS flowed. Seven years of knowing me was trumped by their bigoted ideas of what a lesbian ought never do (e.g., be seen in public with a straight woman, ask a straight woman to lunch, etc.) with no care as to what my motives were.
Then, my ex-housekeeper had the nerve to say that she and her husband wanted to come to my home for my mother’s in-home celebration of her life because what they did to me as my mother lay dying wasn’t personal. They told me that they like me as a person, and hey, “We think we can be adults about this.” I responded by saying, if they had been adults, they wouldn’t be in the predicament they were in–wanting to attend but no longer being welcome in my home. I ended the relationship with the question, “Have you no shame for how you behaved on that day?”
Way to treat a person as a lesbian first and a human second. No that’s not personal.
A couple things to think about here: First, if being gay is against God’s will, then why does homosexuality exist in nearly every species of animal? There are only three possible answers:
1) God wanted homosexuality in the world, so that we humans can learn tolerance and acceptance.
2) Animals can choose to go against God and nature, and are sentient beings, meaning, PETA has been right all along.
3) God made a mistake.
Secondly, if God is so against homosexuality, why is one book of the Bible written by a woman who was married to another woman (Ruth and Naomi) ? For that matter, why did Jesus heal the husband of the Centurion ? ( I know the MODERN translations say servant, but Bibles before 1809 said husband)
Finally, what does it matter. If this person were a true friend, he wouldn’t care. He might voice disapproval, but if he wants to give up friendship, then he really isn’t a friend. Also, he’s not a very good pastor if he cannot follow Jesus’ teachings of “love your neighbor as yourself.”
The core value of Christianity, of Jesus’ teachings, is the same core value as the Wicca practice: “And ye harm none, do what ye will.” Or, as some have said more recently, live and let live.
Blessed be.
God doesn’t make mistakes. But he lets beings make choices. He doesn’t condone murder, but some people choose to do it. It’s not God’s mistake that he allows people to choose.
He still loves those that make errors.
I believe that scripture does teach that homosexuality is wrong.
I have a lesbian sister. I love her and her partner both. They are good people. As for judging them, I will leave that to God.
Comparing being gay to “murder” is just…idiotic. That’s all anyone has to say about your post, except…I feel for your sister and her partner; that they have to listen to your condescending religious babble… That’s the real tragedy here.
Bill, whatever you do, do not let your sister know that you think she will be judged for being a lesbian… that will crush her if she feels anything for you as a brother. Just for the record, I am a straight man bill, not your “to be judged deviant”. Are you that foolish to think she made a choice to be a lesbian? Please Bill, pray to your narrow minded God from your narrow mind, so he will show mercy on her. Your a sad man.
Please stop judging Christians and the Bible on how people wrongly interprete it. God is love, nowhere does it say that homosexuality is wrong, nowhere does it preach hate. you say nothing about the many of us that say it isn’t a sin, but jump on all of us from a great hight when one or two say it is cos the Bible says it is, when true, non jungemental Christians know it isn’t. Stop doing what you’re accusing us of doing.
I’m sure this poster has nothing against open-minded people who truly exemplify What Jesus Would Do; however, there are so many people who attribute their discriminatory views to that religion, while far less vocal (and less funded) are the “we’re not all like that” Christians. And then there are the pro-gay Catholics who say they support equality while putting money in a collection plate every week supporting a hierarchy that DOESN’T. So you can consider yourself exempt when people rightfully take bigoted Christians to task, but keep in mind that those “Christians” don’t consider you to be one of them anyway, simply because you support equailty.
And surely your sister loves you even though she must believe you are as wrong and misguided for clinging to biblical norms 2000 years ago, as you believe her to be for choosing her lex press her God-given attraction and love for her partner. I am sure you your slaves with respect also, since God is also clear that we treat them well. (Or if you are a slave, that you obey your master.). Stay the course.
I agree with the point you are making but there is one thing. Naomi was Ruth’s mother-in-law. She stayed with her mother-in-law to help her out after their respective husbands died. She married Boaz later at the request of her mother-in-law.
I’m a mother of three, I’m a grandmother of four, I’m not a bible scholar, but I am a Christian. I do believe in true love. True love is a beautiful thing. Many will never experience it, but if you’re one of the lucky ones, I can’t imagine God shaking his finger saying; “You’re a bad boy/girl for “falling in love” with the “wrong person!!” Nope. I don’t think so.
There are so many things we could be doing to make this world a better place.
Please quit casting those stones, self righteous people.
Kudos to you straight man. Much love & happiness to you, your brother & his spouse.
I am a Roman Catholic from a conservative Irish Catholic family, as you can imagine I know my Bible fairly well.
Ok I read the whole of the article and all I can say is that he doesn’t know his Bible that well so I don’t feel he is rreally in a position to preach about the word of and this applies to all those who tell you, you will burn in hell if you are Homosexual, get tattooed, drink, smoke and any other thing they use the bible to hit you over the for. Read the Bible properly and if you read it properly there are only ten lines in it that are the words of God and that is the Ten Commandmets and if you read it properly the only ones really going against the word of with this type of diatribe is them they all break the ninth commandment which is ‘Thou shalt not bear false witness’. I suppose strictly speaking they are also breaking the third commandment, ‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain’.
Great story:). Being de-friended is nothing like being de-familied. Thanks for being open and brilliant and funny and kind to your brother.
Commenters, you can quote the bible all day long. It doesn’t make a difference in my life, nor should it make laws. Your religion shouldn’t form the laws that run my or anyone else’s lives. Do not use your religion as a way to justify exclusion and hate.
Nope, love doesn’t win every time. All I did was marry their father and all three of the bitches turned against him and our life together. The truth is, they didn’t want him to have ANYONE, I realize it isn’t me. They are so selfish and immature, they view his happiness as their misfortune. There are always people in the world who feel they are superior whether love is in the picture or not.
P.S. Your Baptist friend should’ve been a priest, then he could exclude everyone.
Then that wasn’t love? Wow.
I am sorry you had to lose someone for supporting your brother, furthermore I am glad you stuck by him, and even more I am glad you did it without returning the hate that was directed at you–I would like to thank you.
What a pleasure to read – thank you for this. The real questions, though, are: are you single, and do you live in the Chicago area?
“Hate the sin, love the sinner.” I don’t accept this assessment of gay love, gay marriage, or gay sex. It’s a simplistic bumper sticker. It assumes that gays are guilty of something, and I absolutely reject that conclusion. Don’t you dare love me as a sinner because I’m gay. I’m gay, and that’s not a sin. To suggest it is a sin is an act of condescension.
Everyone sins. Regardless of whether or not being gay is a sin, the idea behind that line is saying that we need to love others indiscriminately. Even if being gay isn’t a sin (I’m not sure) then you are still a sinner. We all are.
Gay is not a sin but do you understand that the word we translate as sin means missing the mark, being imperfect. So yes we are all imperfect so all sinners but that does not equate with immoral or evil
Like the scribes and Pharisees of old, your ex-Facebook friend thinks he is superior to you and others. Whereas Jesus would have gladly eaten at the table with “riff raff” like your wonderful brother and his husband. Christ knew that people are more important than laws, even Divine laws — which is why he touched the leper and why he allowed the disciples to pluck grain on the sabbath. Christ also knows your brother needs a mate, and has provided him with a great one!
I loved this article until I read the last sentence. Love does not win every time, so please do yourself a favor and try to introspectively correct that false assumption. Yes, hate never wins, but that doesn’t mean that love always wins as a result. The opposite of hate is not love, it is apathy; the opposite of love is not hate, it is apathy. If love always wins then our world would be run by hippies. If love always wins then being passive aggressive wouldn’t exist. I just wanted to correct you, because you kid yourself.
He never said “love always wins.” He said “love wins, period.” I think he was just expressing that he chose love instead of hate. In his situation, love wins.
No, love always wins, if you are a Christian, because God is love. Crime is actually on a decrease, while there are more effective weapons this has lead to less percentage death during war than any other period. We are advancing towards better lives all the time, and this is because of love. Even though that may not have been the author’s intent the reality is that love exists as much or more than hate, but hate sells newspapers. I believe in pre-emptive love over pre-emptive strikes, and I am not ashamed of it, and I am so far removed from a hippie it is unbelievable. All religions, and agnostics and atheists value love, because love is a human value, it makes life worth living, and something that basic and that valuable will always be sought after and fought for until it is victorious. It is not naive to believe in love, it is naive to stand in its way, and declare it powerless.
You’re a moron. Apathy is the lack of emotion. It is NOT the “opposite” to any emotion. That’s like trying to say that white is the opposite of blue, because white is the lack of any color. And even if love DOESN’T always win in real life, I will NEVER understand people like you who seem to revel in that fact, instead of wanting to make the world a better place. You’ve completely missed his point of his love for his brother, and fellow man in general, being stronger than the hate generated by his “friend.” And your oversimplification that someone who lives their life by the tenants of love is a “hippie,” along with the completely unveiled prejudice against what you apparently think of as “hippies,” is grossly offensive. It isn’t the optimists who kid themselves. It’s you, and people like you. Because we know through personal experience that if the rest of you got your heads out of your asses and stopped focusing on all the negative shit in your lives as an excuse to be complacent, greedy, and selfish, the possibilities of what we could accomplish as a species would open up in a way hitherto unseen in our history. So you go enjoy your apathy. We’re going to go back to doing what we can to make this world a little more awesome every chance we get, right along with this amazing guy.
Timothy – you’re kind of a dick.
Hi Timothy,
Thank you for your comment.
I guess that my last sentence was really more of a personal value statement than a decree about the laws of the universe.
My point is this: I love my brother. Anyone who would try to come between me and him (and his happy marriage to his husband) can take off. That is where I make my stand.
Peace,
Dave
Amazing how many people misunderstand their religion, and that Christianity’s base message is love, not hate. Fine, you and he have separate views, it’s quite a shame that he couldn’t accept you in spite of your differences. I know I have many friends I may not agree with regarding religion, or political views, but these people are still my friends and we accept each other regardless of our religions or political views, and respect each other nonetheless.
You don’t need him in your life, and his congregation doesn’t need him either. Anyone who can’t bother to abide by the “love the sinner, hate the sin” view doesn’t need to be spewing bile and vitriol at anyone. It’s wonderful to see the love and pride you have in your brother and his partner. Your brother would be proud of you getting unfriended by this guy, because the love of your brother and his partner for you is worth far more than getting judged by a douchebag who missed a MAJOR lesson in seminary. I’d have sent him a reply to his message with a link to this picture https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/528059_511448182217973_1184696091_n.jpg (or just copying the phrase on the t-shirt) of “Your’e not homophobic, You aren’t scared, You’re a douchebag.”
Just to make you feel better, there are Christians who do get Christianity’s base message of love, and respect for all creatures on this earth.
I cycle and one of my large fundraiser rides is for AIDS. If you’re wondering my sexual orientation, I’m lesbian, and I also do not follow an abrahamic religion, yet do follow a religion. This matters little. The team I ride with is for the local gay and lesbian community center, so you would expect that every member of our team falls into the LGBT spectrum. Nope… One of the riders on our team is straight, he is the youth pastor for a major church in this area that’s been around for decades. He is also part of the glue for our team. He cheerleads us all while cycling. if he makes it to a rest stop before the rest of our group and he’s finished his hydrating and snackage, he will wait near the entrance to the stop for more of our team to come in. He will have encouraging words for all of us, as well as big hugs for all of us, regardless of gender. He will rally us together for dinner the first night of the ride, rally us together at the post ride vigil/closing ceremonies, and when we’re all running around in key west after the ride is done, he will join all of us with his wife and family and hang out with us. His wife is just as warm and open a soul as he is, and we’re quite happy to have him with us, since he’s truly an amazing person, and one of the few people around who get what the gospel is really about, instead of taking things out of context to be able to preach messages of hate. We’re lucky to have him as a part of us. He goes to prove that a person of God does not have to judge (for that matter, he realises it is NOT his place to judge but to accept people instead), The entire team has found a very loyal friend in this man, and he has found some good friends with us. We look forward to cycling many years with this guy.
As a gay woman married to the love of my life for more than six years (together for 11), I just wanted to take a minute and say thank you.
If we have male homosexual marriage and female homosexual marriage where will their children come from ?
First point: the human population is about to break the 7 billion barrier and we’re hardly hovering on the brink of extinction. Most people aren’t gay, and most people will eventually have children through unassisted conception. So why is it any concern of you or anyone else that a small number of married couples might not reproduce?
Second point: homosexuality doesn’t equal infertility. A lesbian friend of mine has so far given birth to three children through artificial insemination, and is planning a fourth.
Orphanages?
They will be able to adopt children from all over the world. And theey can be surrogate mothers or many other ways that they can have children.
Unfortunately, they cannot adopt from all over the world, most of the former Soviet countries do not allow Gay adoption. Ask Elton John what happened when he and his partner tried to adopt a Ukrainian boy.
Also unfortunately, many ‘Christians’ think there shouldn’t be one parent families either and the children should be taken away, as if there aren’t enough children needing a home.
they can adopt many kids need homes and gay couple will appreciate the children they adopt into their family because may straight couple cased them aside gave them up and forgot about them. everyone deserves a family.
There are millions of orphans in the world needing a loving home. The answer to your question is simple. Adoption.
the hundreds of abandoned and neglected children in the foster care system that the heterosexuals choose to mistreat and abandon.
From the people who choose to participate in heterosexual marriages. Just like we now. Gay marriage doesn’t equal more gay people.
Sophia? Really? 95% of the population is *heterosexual* in case you hadn’t noticed. And they make children. And they make gay kids, too. Do you really think the world *needs* more than 7 billion people devouring the resources of the planet? And do you really think the human race will die out because 5% of us don’t have kids?
How does anyone know that 95% of the population is hetrosexual. i keep hearing about figures like this, but nobody will say how they know. I don’t think any census form in any country has a tick box that says what is your sexual orientation.
From straight people who decide, for whatever reason, they do not want their own children. How wonderful that there are people who WANT abandoned and homeless children!
If gay marriage was legal wiould you marry someone of your own sex? If that’s true then we know exactly where your problem lies, internalized homophobia. If not then I don’t understand your question at all.
Is having a child a requirement for any other marriage? If so, then there are a lot of childless heterosexual married couples whose marriages should be legally dissolved/annulled/divorced/whatever. Marriage and having children are 2 separate issues. There are married people who choose not to have children, there are married people who CAN’T have children for medical reasons. And there are unmarried people who have children.
Having children is not a condition or a result of marriage. If homosexual marriage is not allowed because there are no children (which is a faulty premise in and of itself), then heterosexual marriages should not be allowed to continue if the couple has no children.
Who says they want to have children?
Actually for sophia.
Wherre will their children come from? Why Sophia, where all children come from– the union of a man and a woman, or at least the union of a sperm and an egg.
some of them will have children from previous heterosexual unions. Some will have children through surrogates and sperm donations.
But you know where most of those children will come from? Where they often do for gay people: from the legions of cast-off unwanted products of irresponsible heterosexual procreation, the refugees from the third world, the children hetero families won’t adopt., the ones that stay in the foster care system and institutions instead of getting a home with two parents of the same sex who love them, far more than the birth parents who abandoned threm.
So then are you also stating, Sophia, that infertile straight men or women, or those who simply do not want to have children or children of their own should not be allowed to marry? Also, PS many people chose to have children out of wed-lock. It’s not exactly a big secret. Also, you are a moron.
Also, in reply to Sophia’s post – there’s IVF and surrogacy (although in some jurisdictions, this is illegal sadly, which I personally think is wrong). There’s more than one way to skin a cat, and there’s more than one way to have a baby!
IVF, Surrogacy, adoption…. shall I continue?
And this is the part where the straight man who doesn’t want children sees this.
Where will “their” children come from? Uh, hello? Adoption? There are over half-a-million kids in foster care and all you can think about is bringing more children into an already over-populated world? Lady, please wake up and smell what you’re shoveling.
Hi, I enjoyed reading this. Firstly, I’m a Christian, and the first thing that I personally believe in, and still do, is to love the sinner, hate the sin. We’ve all sinned. Even your pastor friend is a sinner. Not one person is perfect. And a true friend, including yourself, wouldn’t publisize their differences like this. Then I look at it from another angle…I don’t see how your brothers lifestyle has anything to do with your friend, why has he, or anyone else think its their right to say, well your gay brother effects me. We all do things differently, why should the way I dress, speak, walk or do my hair have anything to do with you? Really, is it that important. I could go on about this, but know this, when the day comes to be judged, ALL, will be judged according to every moment in their lives, as for me, I suck at being a Christian, but know I’m loved and where I’m going when I die.
Carla, you are assuming (wrongly) that being gay is a sin. It is not. In every case, the biblical prohibitions have to do with gang rape (compare Genesis 19 with Judges 19), with child molesting (true meaning of 1 Corinthians 6:9, as Martin Luther understood 500 years ago), and turning to idol worship and same-sex pagan temple prostitution (Romans 1). And by the way, we aren’t Jewish, so Leviticus is not addressed to us. If you insist otherwise, you are like the believers in the South 150 years ago who *proved* from the bible that slavery was God’s order! They had good points and made a great case — but they were dead wrong and deaf to the Holy Spirit, who wants to teach us something new (John 16:12).
Don’t forget Galatians 3:28, which *quotes* Genesis 1:27 “male and female” to overturn it — for we are not under the old order of creation but are a new creation in Christ. What matters now is love, and two men or two women can share love, whether you approve or not. Many churches understand this, and use the Divine power in Matthew 18:18-20 to “loose” (permit) and authorize same-sex unions. We permit on earth, and Heaven ratifies it. At least my church does, even if yours does not.
Carla,
I did not notice anywhere in this article where its writer named the man who un-friended him on FB. He was using this example as a springboard for a thoroughly wonderful article. I don’t see that he has publicized anything about anyone in particular.
I’m with Michael. First of all Love the sinner hate the sin is NOT in the Bible but was a quote by Gandhi. Secondly, YOU may believe that homosexuality is a sin, but I do not. Homosexuals are the people God made them to be. It is not for anyone to judge, nor to question God’s reasons or motives. Just love and care about one another. That is the base message of the Bible.
I’m confused. Which Bible-defined marriage? Between a slave-owner and his slave? A man and his multiple wives? A soldier and his virgin conquest? Which Bible-defined marriage are we talking about?
I particularly like the marriage of old Abraham himself, his wife AND concubines! The ancestor of Jews, Christians, and Muslims too! It’s in the Bible, it was an accepted method of marriage and childbearing, and it was done by one of the most influential of all Biblical people. If we are taking the Bible so literally about homosexuality, then I want to see Christians taking the Bible as literally about concubinage, and not eating pork, and sacrificing live animals.
But since Christians have strayed from these other Biblical teachings, then either the Christians are cherry-picking their beliefs, or that it is acceptable for societal change over millennia to influence food, rites, and other sex habits, so this can be changeable too.
If you are a Biblical literalist, then do ALL the Bible, not just the convenient parts.
Rivardau & Tom Kay, You are both SPOT ON. Spot on!!! Seriously. Best comments I’ve read in reply to anything worth reading in a long, long time. Thank you!! As someone who can’t stand the hypocrisy of certain Biblical espousing, and the leaving behind of other Biblical theories, I applaud you both. I mean, if one is to take the story literally, the Bible says that some of these guys lived for over 300 years and had hundreds of children each. IF that was the case, I’m sure that wasn’t just by one momma, so… I have to take the “stories” (as I see them) with a grain of salt (besides, who lived past 30 in the 1800’s even… anyone?). Anyway, you had me at “Bible-defined marriage”.
Good read.congrats to couple.send best wishes n love. As for the man who judged and withdrew friendship, we pray for him also.my bible says don’t judge or well be judged.I’d rather love than judge love covers a multitude of sins.if we want our sins covered we need to also love and cover others also.
Next time someone wants to unfriend you because of your gay “anti-God” (seriously?) postings, send them this link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1467950424/?tag=johnshorebook-20
I love this. Thank you.
My son(19) has fairly recently has came out.As a fifty year old I was born and taught that homosexuality is wrong,and he knew it.He wouldn’t tell me , instead told his mother who then told me. I had to call him aside and ask why he couldn’t tell me and I felt like the biggest jerk in the world. I was the close minded dickhead they worry about. I love my son more than anything in the world and don’t care about any “persuasion” he is my son and I will support him in anything he does or wants to do!
He is so fortunate to have you as a parent. There are WAY too many parents who disown their children after they learn they are homosexual. Thank you for doing what is right.
A great post… and a lot of LGBTIQ people get this type of thing all the time. From Parents and churches telling children they are sick and are sinners – and are sending them to Ex gay therapy (which frequently leads to suicide attempts and has been unconditionally criticised by many professional bodies) to Parents and siblings Bashing and banishing their LGBTIQ family members. The irony is that these people call themselves christian and yet the fruit of their actions is death and destruction – a sign (according to Jesus) of false teaching.
For those who do strike this in their lives some thoughts and resources
Christian means “like Christ” – and Jesus gives us a number of explicit commands – including – Do NOT Judge others (three times to make sure that command was VERY clear), but DO look after the poor, the sick and the needy. They only sinners that Jesus gets upset at are those preachers who condemn others for sinning whilst being sinners themselves (hypocrites) and we are told we are ALL sinners. True Christians would focus on the commands of Jesus. People who dont – well they arent christians what ever they are.
Some resources for those in this situation include
http://www.freedom2b.org/
and also
and a movie worth watching that shows the results of this attitude (extremely sad though)
although there are many other resources out there on the web.
This is wonderful. Thank you for these loving words.
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Is there so much love in the world that we must waste what is given to us as a gift? I have found that if you do not cherish the love that is offered to you with no strings then eventually you will be alone and bitter. I do not refuse friendships of people who are not what the world would call Normal. And who defines NORMAL? At 64 I have learned to cherish the laughter, hugs, comfort, companionship of old and new friends. I have learned not to judge based on the appearance, sex, race or religion. And I feel sorry for those that have missed out on the joys to be found in the differences between each of us.
hear hear…
This is beautiful. I’m sad that this happened to you. I’m sad that this happens at all. It’s sad that there is so much hatred in the “Christian” community. Here’s what I know:
“God love you all just the way you are” (Mr Rogers said this to a gay man”
“God honors ALL loving relationships” (unknown preacher)
If I were asked to make a list of the most beautiful people I have ever met, there would be a lot of gay people on that list!
From a Christian who does not believe in hatred or bigotry, I love you all!
I am 100% with you on this. I am straight, I have been married for 10 wonderful years and have a 3 year old daughter. I live in Australia, a country which refuses to allow my wonderful, beautiful sister to officially marry her wife. They had their ceremony 12 years ago, in front of their family & friends. They have beautiful 6 year old twin girls. I adore them, my sister has been ‘out’ to me since I was a child (13 at the time) and I have never understood why people feel it is up to them to judge.
Thank you for posting this.
WOnder how much pork your ex-friend eats. The Bible calls that an abomination, too.
I don’t want to be “THAT guy” because I think this is a wonderfully written and heartfelt post. Yes the Old Testament says that JEWS aren’t to eat pork, however in the New Testament, Peter has a vision of all “unclean” creatures being lowered down from heaven (not only an image that God’s salvation for all people, but that he wasn’t expecting Gentile followers to follow kosher laws) and Paul speaks openly about letting go of those old laws. So please, if you’re going to throw out something like that, make sure you know exactly what you are saying. It’s become a very popular…meme or saying or Internet trend to throw out kosher laws that were for Jews only in response to anti-Gay Christians or in regards to anti-gay Christians without understanding the full concept behind those laws.
Many of the OT points brought up do have some weight to them, though, as the most often cited passages for reasoning of homosexuality being a “sin” are from leviticus.
Actually, in this context it should be shellfish that you are discussing since both the eating of shell fish and “man lying with man” are a chapter away from each other. They both are described with the exact same word, which when translated, means “ritually unclean”. If you feel that Peter had a vision of lobsters descending from heaven, but not two men in love… and feel compelled to live by Levitical law (which the beginning of Leviticus states is only for the Levite tribe, then you better pick up rocks and start stoning gay men. That is the end of the passage you are trying to justify.
Then when you are done, you need to stone people who work on Saturday and kids who disobey their parents..
At that juncture, your point will be valid. And you will be in jail.
Everett, please check out the original languages of the Bible. Every single time that “homosexuality” is mentioned, in either Hebrew or Greek, it is a word that refers to the fertility cult temple prostitutes. This has nothing to do with same sex marriages or with homosexuality, but rather with turning from the true God to those in the fertility religions. There are many, many documents–17 of them are in the Vatican Library–that show that same-sex unions were sanctioned by the church since the 4th century. This applies to all of the references commonly quoted from both the Old and the New Testaments. Check out Strong’s Concordance to the King James Bible. I’m serious about this, Everett, many, many people have been led astray by what I can only assume are the false teachings of Lucifer. I know this makes me sound like a fundamentalist whacko, but I accept the “fundamentalist” label and reject the “whacko” part! I speak with the doctrine of the Holy Spirit in my heart, and I tell you that what you have been told to believe is a perversion of the doctrine of the Christ.
Wonderful writing. As the mother of a gay man it saddens me daily what my son goes through. He had neighbors at one point that had their children taunt him as he walked from his car to his home everyday. He married the love of his life but had to do so in Canada because our state won’t let them, so I didn’t get to attend their wedding. This essay brought tears to my eyes, not only for my son, but for all the children who go through so much rejection from their own families every day. I cannot imagine how painful it must be to love someone and have people you thought loved you reject you because of it.
homosexuality is against Gods` teaching in His Word…. God created sex between a man and a woman…. not between a man and a man or a woman and a woman…..
*takes a picture*
God created people with physical differences that are easy to see, but also differences in the brain that are not so easy to see. Call it a “birth defect” if you must – but why would anyone choose a lifestyle to be ostrecized and denied basic human rights? What does the bible say about hermaphrodytes born with both genitalia?
Lisa, I am getting ready to post an article on this site that addresses this VERY issue! Please check it out tomorrow or the next day (9/5 or 9/6).
Your ignorance will be cleared and your eyes will be opened, the day that you die, and you will realize that the book which you so tightly cling to, is but a fairytale in a land of misguided dreamers. I am not saddened by your blindness, because it does not affect me, however, I am saddened that it will take until death for you to become enlightened.
May the gods bless you how they see fit. I am sending positive energies to you.
If you’re right and we’re wrong about the Bible we won’t be enlightened when we die, cos there will be nothing after so we won’t know about it. However, by the time you realise we are right it’ll be too late, but you WILL know about it.
i think you need to re-read the Bible, preferably in the original Hebrew and Greek
nowhere in all the books of the Old Testament and New Testament does God condemn homosexuality itself, and nowhere in the Bible does Jesus or God by way of the prophets state that marriage is intended only for a man and a woman
the Bible often praises straight marriage, but that says nothing about gay marriage, just as anyone can praise vanilla ice cream without saying anything one way or the other about chocolate ice cream
so, really, if you think the Bible condemns homosexuality, you must not have actually read the Bible
God also forgot to put “thou shalt not rape” in the 10 commandments. Oh, but don’t worry, “thou shalt not use the lords name in vain” is there, so we’re all good. Oh, he also says that working on the sabbath is a crime punishable by death. As is being raped (if you’re a married woman), wearing clothes of two different fabrics, and not being able to prove that you’re a virgin after being married (if you’re a woman).
actually ‘Thou shall not rape’ is pretty much cover in the “Thou shall not covet’
Please pay attention. No human is put on this earth to judge any other human being. Leave that up to God. Read John 3:16-18. Just sayin… I’m a lesbian and I know that my lord a Saviour answers my prayers and is in control of my life. Amen! Ummmmhummmm
Don’t forget Nick, God created sex between a man and a woman and then that woman and her son. Ewww….And I suppose their kids had to have had sex with each other. Again, ewww. If Cain hadn’t killed Able, Able could have had incest with his mom as well. Does this mean the Bible condones incest?
If he didn’t create sex between two men or two women, then how is it possible? Your post is illogical and therefore has been disregarded.
FYI, in greek theology there is nothing in the old testimate that speaks of homosexuality or a marriage must be between a man and a woman. You will not find a translation for the word homosexual in the old greek language. It wasn’t until the new testament that homosexuality became part of the vobaulary. I may add as well there are 45 different versions of the new testament all are interpreted in their own way.
I think you’ll find that the word homosexuality in NT is in the more modern versions as that word came into use when I was in my 20s, about 40 years ago, so that word wouldn’t have been known when the older versions were translated. Any interpretation using the word homosexual is therefore the thought of the translator.
Whether the Bible says homosexuality is a sin or not is a moot point. This is a civil rights issue. You can believe what you want to believe, and you are free to practice that belief in a group with other such like-minded people, hateful as it might be. But you cannot legislate morality.
Hi Nick– Thanks for sharing your perspective. You do not seem familiar with the Bible and what it actually contains. Please take a look at evoL= three part series on Homosexuality and the Bible by our blogger Thomas Ross. Thanks!
Nope. Didn’t.
Wrong, Nicky. This is not God’s “teaching” or “word.” It’s your delusion. Two people in love with each other is never wrong. Your hatred of such is wrong and is indicative of mental illness. Try checking into a mental hospital.
Please Nick, as a few of us have asked many times, can you please tell us (hopefully with chapter and verse) where Jesus even mentions homosexuality. Also, which of the 12 commandments covers it.
People with such strong feelings about biblical sexual immorality would be better served looking at references to the number of wives Abraham, David, Solomon, and many others had. If marriage is between ONE man and ONE woman I think they forgot how to count. LGBTQ relationships are only hurting you if you make it your business. Their relationship is between their partner, them, and God if they so choose. Straight couples expect to be able to be able to conduct their relationship without public interference; that should be a consideration extended to all people.
Please, Nick do focus on God’s Word, and worry about all the pastor’s who are currently having affairs, they are doing more damage by far.
This is being shared all over FB. I doubt you’ll ever know how many people you touched with your story. Thanks for writing about your experience.
Very well said. Personally I have always believed that finding a partner in crime that loves, respects, and shares common values with you is way more important than what race or gendar they are. True love is true love and it’s wonderful that your brother has found it. I wish them many years of sunsets and rises. Cheers.
Thank you for this. I don’t know you from Adam; I found this from a FB posting. My beloved little brother is gay and in an 11-year relationship with a guy I adore. We’re froma very conservative family (Baptist!), and of course it’s been a long, heartbreaking road for all of us, as some family members are supportive, others are not, and still others are somewhere in between. You’ve articulated nicely some of the things that make an otherwise great story of love and companionship a tough route to navigate. These are also the reasons why I am so very invested in seeing my own state’s resolution against gay marriage defeated in November (Minnesota). It’s great to read a simple discussion of why our family members deserve unequivocal support in public venues like FB, even when it loses us some so-called “friends.”
What a beautiful essay. How ironic that in defriending you for the reason he stated, this so-called “minister” actually went AGAINST what Jesus would’ve wanted. I suppose “Love one another” just doesn’t apply here. I know it doesn’t matter to you that you’ve lost this friend, but the real loser is your friend, who will never know your brother and his husband and will never enrich his life through knowing them. What a pity!
This is an ultimately lovely story with a sad plot twist.
One thing though, was the ceremony REALLY “holy matrimony”? Civil ceremonies and drunk Vegas drive-thrus are legit marriages, but not all marriages are “holy matrimony”. Gays don’t need to own that term like religions want to, we just need equal rights to the term “marriage”.
I wish my older brothers were like you. You rock.
Take heart, there are plenty of religious groups who support gay “Holy Matrimony” as much as the legal civil ‘marriage.’ In fact, many churches have been confering Holy Matrimony upon gay couples long before any of the states started granting gay marriage licenses.
I found your post via Facebook. Thank you for sharing such a horrible experience. No one should be told – by someone at the acquaintance/friendship less – that one’s love for one’s family (yours for your brother, your brother’s for his husband, and so on) is somehow not worthy of the word “Holy.”
Jesus never turned his/her back on anyone. It is amazing how many ppl refuse to quote this scripture. My mom is one of them and I am saddened by this. She is missing out on so much of my beautiful life. John 3:16-18.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I think your point about empathy (imagine if it were you being treated this way, even as a straight person) was so important and what is often missing from these debates. People toss empathy out the window because “I’m not [blank],” but the empathy comes from imaging how you would be treated, not how you would be. So, thanks, great post.
It’s sad that there are people in the world whose hate permeates every aspect of their thinking, so much so that they can’t even see the joy inherent in two people pledging a commitment to one another, regardless of their gender. This man is no loss to your life, or to the life of anyone else he chooses to shun for not being as “holy” as himself (and considering his attitude, I suspect he sees himself as being better than a LOT of people in this world). Thank you, David. For being a good brother and a good human being.
Lucy, a word of caution:
I don’t think its even close to fair to say that “hate permeates every aspect” of this pastor’s thinking. While I strenuously disagree with the actions he took, and do not think these actions at all reflect the heart of Jesus, he’s still a person, still has a life, and is not devoid of love. I’d be willing to bet this guy has a wife and kids, who he no doubt loves dearly. He is probably kind to his neighbors. He has a conviction based on his beliefs that you disagree with, but that does not make him a hate-monger. To bring this a little closer to home, my parents share his views. They wouldn’t act in that same way toward a friend, but they share much of his thinking. And yet, I have rarely met a more giving pair, a couple more loving in the way they treat not only their own children, but everyone around them. Love, not hate, permeates their actions. I fear that as we strive to erase the pain experienced by gays at the hands of our unsupportive and often downright cruel society, we are quick to brand those who disagree with us as hateful. As another poster commented, love always wins. But love does not cut down one person in order to protect or encourage another. I hope I have not caused offense. My only goal is to remind myself and others that we must show the same love that we hope to see in those around us.
No offence taken Russ, at least, not from you. However, I have spent my entire adult life on the receiving end of this kind of “love”. I have seen it at work in the regular discrimination I have faced because of my sexual orientation. I have seen it at work keeping two dear friends of mine on opposite sides of an ocean for four long years now, because they’re not the correct gender pairing and their marriage is deemed unworthy by the self-proclaimed righteous government of the United States. Their eleven year old daughter is broken hearted and they struggle to explain to her why her mothers cannot live under the same roof.
I am long since past caring if these abuses are the result of sincerely held religious beliefs on the part of people who are otherwise nice to others around them – because I don’t believe that a truly decent, honourable person would ever stoop to the level required to factor this kind of thing into their worldview. Tearing loving families apart is abhorrent behaviour and completely negates anything else a person could possibly do to earn brownie points in my estimation.
I fear you have mixed action with intent, which is risky. The Christian (generalizing, of course) does not merely hold that homosexuality is wrong. This belief, standing alone, is cause enough to condemn an action, but the condemnation could not be said to be done in love. However, the Christian also believes that whatever is wrong is wrong for a reason, that the wrongdoing is bad for the doer. This being the case, it is not an act of love but an act of negligence to keep silent. If i believed that pears contained large amounts of a deadly poison, it could not lovingly allow another to eat them. Despite how misguided I might be, it would still be because I care.
I understand your pain. Rather, I understand the source of your pain, though I would never claim to comprehend its depths. As a result of this pain, the root of your anger is clear, and I would never deny its validity. However, hate is a matter of intention. The intention of the many Christians who believe homosexuality is wrong is love.
The one thing I would ask is this: why is the bulk of Christian condemnation – at least as far as passing restrictive laws is concerned – directed against GLBT people? I don’t see a concerted effort being made to ban divorce or institute jail terms for adultery. In fact, I see no concentrated effort being made to pass laws against anyone considered guilty of any other “moral sin” than homosexuality. Is it because gay people still seem like a small minority and, thus, a much easier scapegoat than adulterers, who make up an estimated half the population? To me, that doesn’t look very much like the work of dedicated believers so much as the actions of people comfortably attacking others for their sins as a distraction from their own. People such as Newt Gingrich, for one example, an apparently unstoppable adulterer who still feels entitled to comment on how gay people are debasing the holy institution of marriage.
I do understand what you’re saying; please don’t think I don’t. And for what it’s worth, I don’t presume to put you in the aforementioned camp of hypocrites. However, sincere or otherwise, religious tenets have no place shaping the legal system of a free country – at least not if it’s going to be free for everyone as opposed to just adherents.
On this point I agree with you wholeheartedly. It is extremely hypocritical to pick just this one issue and ignore the others. I also agree that it is not the job of the government to mandate a definition of marriage based on religious beliefs. Even if i disagree completely with your definition of marriage, I don’t think it is the role of the government to restrict it. Each person should be free to make that choice. Interestingly–from a sociological point of view–if you wound the clock back a few decades, you would find exactly what you were asking about: people making a big deal about divorce. Divorce was a hot-button issue as it slowly became ‘normal.’ It did end up becoming normal, though. It will not surprise me if homosexuality does as well. I digress.
In any case, I agree with you: this kind of hypocrisy is ridiculous.
“I’d be willing to bet this guy has a wife and kids, who he no doubt loves dearly.”
Dude, I’m sorry, but in every instance of someone behaving like this I can think of, he doesn’t “love” his wife or feel anything that a sane, aware woman would recognize as love. For homophobes, women are a convenient and fun way to relieve oneself, in my experience, without exception. He feels a tolerant fondness for the fact that God made this fun little toy for him with breasts and other cute body parts, and best of all, it will raise his kids and cook and clean for him in the bargain.
Sorry, but if you act like this guy acted, you do not feel love or anything like it for women. I’ll speak frankly. Phobes are people who consider being penetrated by a male to be the gravest and most disgusting insult and offense against dignity in the world. Be honest. How do you think people like that regard human creatures — women — who they feel are designed to be penetrated?
Whatever he feels for his wife, it’s not love. Homophobes are not capable of loving women or treating them with any dignity or respect. (And yes, that goes for other women as well … but right now we’re talking about a man.)
I see we have a troll in the dungeon. Since, fireandair, you’re bringing this extremely harsh accusation against not only one fellow human but also an entire (rather sizable) group, I’d love to hear you back it up. Perhaps, for our edification, you could link us to a research study with some data that backs you up? Failing that, could we at least get a couple vignettes from your own personal experience, detailing how you listened to a statistically significant number of known homophobes pouring out their inmost thoughts?
For obvious reasons, I wouldn’t normally ask such a high degree of evidence in such a forum. But you seem so sure of yourself, and have such detailed information that I can’t help but think you must have done your homework. Surely you wouldn’t bring such slander against a fellow human without rock solid evidence for it. That would be border-line intolerant, almost judgmental.
This reply is intended for a reply from Russ.
Russ, you may believe that the intention of Christians against homosexuality is “love,” but in reality, it is an oxymoron. Their belief system is not supported by factual, tangible reality. I don’t subscribe to such an unsound “belief” system: I subscribe to actual reality, and that reality is that two people of the same sex who are in love is not a bad thing by any means. To deny homosexuals the right to be happy is the very definition of hate. These allegedly “loving” Christians are blindly in denial.
Free Spirit,
It was not my intention to get into a debate here about the rational basis for ethics, but since you’ve leveled the accusation against Christians that their belief system–which, as you say, leads to hate–is based on intangibles, consider for a moment a belief system based completely on tangibles. Lets begin by laying out some assumptions:
First, we assume that you can, in fact, trust your five senses and the brain centers that integrate them. This may seem painfully obvious, but it is worth noting that our belief in the reliability of the ‘tangibles’ is based on the assumption that we perceive the physical world as it is. I believe that we do, but each of us has to take that belief on a certain form of faith.
Second, we assume that logic works. Again, seemingly trivial, but still an assumption. Logic is a framework of rules for understanding the world, but the rules of logic, by nature, cannot be proven. We assume them to be true because they seem to ‘work,’ but they are, nevertheless, intangible.
Now a coupe assumptions I’ve made about you. You took the time to reply to my comments and point out my error (for which I thank you. while I disagree with you, I do appreciate your effort to correct my thinking, since we do not learn unless people dare to do so.), so it is clear to me that the truth is important to you. Since your post was a reaction against Christian hate, it seems reasonable to me that you have a strong sense of morality. Otherwise, why take the time? People are important to you, and I find that commendable. Furthermore, since you have have attempted to correct me, I can only conclude that you have some concept of a universal truth that we can agree upon, if only we both can see the logic of it. On all three of these points I agree with you, and I ask you to pardon me if I’ve misrepresented you some how. My goal is not to put words in your mouth, but simply to arrive at a common logical framework so that we can go about thinking this through.
You claim that Christians base their beliefs on the intangible, but that your beliefs are more solidly founded. Since you decry Christian hatred, you obviously believe there is such a thing as hate, but hate is not tangible, and does not have a tangible basis. Is hate a bad thing? I think it is, but good and bad are not tangible. Whether you claim it is founded on a consensus of society, the whim of the individual, or the mandate (or, as Christians believe, character) of a higher being, morality becomes no more or less tangible. Individual concepts of morality do–and, indeed, always will–rely on personal assumptions and/or experience.
I have personally experienced the presence of a living and active God in my life. That presence is no more deniable to me than the presence of the keyboard I’m typing on. I think I am safe in assuming that you don’t believe in a God, and certainly not one who is all-powerful and has final say in your life. I think, though, we can agree that if such a God existed, it would be as foolhardy and pointless for me to argue with Him as it would be for me to try to debate the plot of a book with its author. Its the author’s story, not mine. Likewise, for me to disagree with God about morality is childish at best.
This has gotten long, and I apologize for that. Clarity was more important to me than brevity. I’d like to make one more point, though, before I end.
Christian belief is that knowing God is synonymous with living. To live without knowing God is to live without doing what you were made for, and Knowing God is enough, period. It has become increasingly clear to me that if I lost everything else but still had God, my life would be full. When we do something that violates God’s law, it keeps us from knowing Him as we could otherwise. (for reasons of space, I won’t go in to the reasons for that, though I’d be happy to clarify them. If you want another tedious monologue from me, just ask.) Thus, for a Christian to take a stand and say that being in a homosexual relationship is wrong is, in fact, love. Though the homosexual person may desire the love and fulfillment of a committed relationship, that relationship will keep them from experiencing the ultimate love and fulfillment that could come from God. I’ll grant you though, many Christians go about bringing that message in a very antagonistic, unkind, even hateful way. Hate, though, is a matter of intent. If a person’s intent is truly loving, their actions may be ignorant, insensitive, and hurtful, but they cannot be hateful. Call my beliefs ignorant, if you like, or deranged, or maniacal, but they are not hateful.
I’m sorry this dragged on so long, and I welcome feedback/pushback. I hope that through this we can both come to understand this issue more clearly.
In pursuit of peace,
Russ
Hi Russ,
Thanks for commenting.
I’m not a Christian, and I suppose that my focus is on making THIS world, here and now, a better place. It is my firm conviction that this is what God wants from us. Perhaps this is a point we will disagree on.
I implore you to look at the effect it has on a gay person to say to them, “Your way of loving is an affront to God.” I don’t care how kindly you say it, that statement hurts. In fact, as we have seen, that statement kills, literally.
I implore you to consult your Christ, ask Him if this is what He wants.
Peace,
Dave
I am a Christian but believe that men having sex with men and men loving men are two different things. I have been pleasantly surprised this week twice. A Ukrainian friend came to visit and somehow we got onto the subject of homosexuality. Knowing what the attitude is over here to homosexuality I thought he would be against gay marriage, but to our surprise he wasn’t.
In the church we have what we call Bible School. Looking at different aspects of the Bible. Again I was pleasantly surprised when I said that I knew they would all disagree with us, but we believed men having sex with men and being gay and loving people of the same sex was two different things and that gay people should be allowed to marry. I was very pleasantly surprised again when several in the group, including two of the elders said they thought the same. Please don’t tar all of us the the same brush, in Christianity, the same as in athiesm some believe one way and one the other. I know several athiests who go ape at the thought of gays getting married.
Dave,
Please, please hear me on this: I love my homosexual brothers and sisters. There are many on this forum and in this world who would (and have) say, “no, what you have could not possibly be love.” Let me explain. As the suffering of homosexual people at the hands of people both inside and outside the church came into focus for me, I was horrified. You have to understand, I grew up overseas in a place where the topic is simply not widely discussed. It wasn’t really until I graduated high school and returned to the US that I truly realized that people treated each other differently because of their sexual orientation. This never occurred to me. My parents had never taught me to look at someone differently because of anything, not race, not gender, not sexual orientation, nothing. When my gay friends have told me stories about being mistreated because of their sexual orientation (one friend described being kicked out of a house party for kissing his boyfriend) I wanted to go lay the the idiots responsible out with a solid left hook–in all Christian love, of course. The reason for this is that, quite simply, my gay friends are not my gay friends, they are just my friends.
As I became aware of all this, and the pain associated with being told that “your way of loving is an affront to God,” as you say, I searched the scriptures. I looked intently for a way of interpreting the Bible that allowed for homosexual practice being ok. (I separate homosexual practice here from a homosexual orientation, because I do not believe that homosexual orientation is a choice, and I also do not believe in a God that punishes for the things we cannot choose) I read everything I could find on the issue, watched many sermons and talks on both sides. I was emotionally invested in finding the answer to be yes, homosexuality is ok in every respect, because I knew the pain the other answer would cause. I lost a good bit of my objectivity, but in the end I could not escape the conclusion: the Bible does not support homosexuality. My heart breaks for my homosexual brothers and sisters, many of whom are personally dear to me, but I cannot for the reason oppose God, though I would be tempted to if not for the other thing I discovered as I studied this question.
You said, Dave, that you were more interested in a solution here and now, and implied–whether intentionally or not–that Christians are interested only in a solution in the afterlife. This is quite simply not true. I could point to the numerous Christian nonprofits that are working hard to end hunger and bring about peace in the name of Jesus, but you could make a–valid, I think–argument that not every Christian is involved in such a thing. Lets look instead at Christian doctrine. When praying shortly before his arrest and eventual execution, Jesus said: “this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Eternal life, Jesus is saying, begins here and now for those who believe. We are also called to be peacemakers, and to give generously to those who are in need, here and now, simply because God loves them. Have we as Christians messed this one up, big time? Yes. No argument from me. But while my ultimate hope for peace and rest is in the afterlife, I–along with the God I serve–am very much invested in the here and now.
Ok, but you are asking the very valid question, ‘what does this have to do with homosexuality or the “other thing” that you discovered?’ Simply this: God is not only enough for every person, in Him we find fullness of life. Fullness, not warm fuzzies or that extra boost to get through the day. Everything. I truly believe that a life without God, no matter what else it may have, will never be full. I don’t expect you to agree with that, and on some level I can even see that being a little offensive, which is not my intent. However, as much as I would like to believe that everyone’s great without God, I can’t.
You might very justifiably claim that this is all very easy for me to say, and you’d be right and you’d be wrong. I certainly haven’t experienced the same pain that a gay teenager experiences when many of his peers mock and deride him for his orientation and the rest avoid him for fear of suffering the same abuse. I don’t claim to understand that pain. Here’s what I have done: I have pleaded with God to call me to singleness so that I can say to my homosexual brothers and sisters with authority and from experience that God is enough. I have little doubt that I sound completely insane to you right now, but hear me out. I’m a hopeless romantic and long to find a partner to spend my life with, but it is my unwavering belief that neither I nor any man or woman needs that. God will sustain me, with our without I wife to share my life with.
You asked me to examine the effect that my beliefs have on others. I have, extensively, and it hurts me more than you know. Even so, I have faith–based on experiential knowledge–that God will supply the every need of the one who trusts Him, and that there is nothing else we truly, ultimately need. You asked me to consult my God and find what He would have me do, and I have. He would have me seek truth, and when I find it, to stand by it, not only because without truth we are lost, but because without it it is impossible to love.
I apologize for how long this got, but I hope that it was worth your while to read to this point. I look forward to discussing this further, and I’m open to any and all ideas and advice on how best to show love.
In pursuit of peace,
Russ
Believe me, Russ, I get it. YOUR experience of God and faith says that homosexual acts are a sin. YOUR experience of God and faith tells you that you are responsible to reach out for the salvation of others by preaching the truth as YOU understand it. You truly believe that your aim is to save souls. You truly believe that everyone can have a full life even without earthly love if they have God.
I am not a Christian. I was raised in the Episcopal church, but I have not attended church as one of the faithful in over 20 years. I still have a relationship with God. There have been times where I was so invigorated and sure in my own faith that I attempted to share it with others. What I have slowly realized is this: My relationship with God is MY relationship with God. What God wants for me is what God wants for ME. Sure, there are many similarities between what God wants for me and what God wants for my neighbor, but they are not identical, because my neighbor and I are not identical.
I have found my relationship with God, and it clearly looks different than yours. But guess what, that’s okay! God is big enough to manage both of our relationships!
Your religion has told you that you are responsible to save souls by preaching the truth. You feel that if you don’t let a gay person know that their sexual practices are a sin, you are failing in your duty and selling that person short. Okay, I get that, and I can appreciate where you’re coming from. I don’t want to see anyone burn in hell, either.
I encourage you to take a moment when this urge to “preach the truth” comes up. Stop, breathe, feel YOUR pain at the notion that this person is, in your view, turning away from God. Notice YOUR pain around that. Be with YOUR pain. In that moment, ask Jesus for guidance. Send up a silent prayer at that moment, maybe something like, “Dear Lord, how may I best serve my brother/sister at this moment?” Russ, this pain of concern for their immortal soul is YOUR pain. Do you understand?
If I’m not mistaken, Jesus encouraged his followers to worship quietly, even in private. I believe this is because each person’s relationship with God is a PROFOUNDLY personal thing, and should be treated as such. If one desires a meaningful and true relationship with God, it needs to be between that person and God, and NO ONE ELSE.
Now, your words indicate that you see the Bible as infallible. Please remember that the Bible as we know it has been gathered together from many disparate texts. Translated. Re-translated. Edited. Redacted. I’ll never say that there isn’t quite a lot of profound truth and useful teachings in the Bible, but the hand and agenda of man has played a significant role in the Book that we have today. Are you prepared to stand behind the parts of the Bible (both OT and NT) that explicitly condone slavery?
I have gone on a bit now, too.
Peace,
Dave
Russ, you’ve made your feelings pretty clear: you are so heavily invested in God and the Bible that you cannot think for yourself anymore. And that’s your problem; you are out of touch with the reality of the world around you.
I used to be a practicing Roman Catholic as a child, but I had no choice then. When I turned 18, I shunned all of my beliefs because they were destroying my sense of self. God is only in one place: my heart.
I don’t subscribe to the Bible because it has nothing to do with true reality. The true reality is that gay people are normal people like you (straights), the only difference being we love people of the same sex. We may not be able to procreate with each other, but we have plenty of other gifts to give to the world.
There is nothing in tangible reality to support your contention that homosexuality is inherently negative in any way. Your views are clouded by the Bible. The Bible is not some reference manual on how to live life. It is a book of fairy tales written over 2,000 years ago during a time when humans were not as intelligent as we are now. It was written as a tool of power and control. It is an insult to human intelligence.
You were right in your assumption that I possess a strong sense of morality. My sense of morality is very straightforward: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. In layman’s terms, it means to treat others the way you want them to treat you. I want to be loved and respected, so I treat others with it. I don’t want my rights to pursue my own happiness taken away, so I don’t take away the rights of others.
Unfortunately, the majority of religious people believe that homosexuality is *immoral* because it goes against God’s “plan” for humanity, which is to act like baby factories. Many of the worst zealots equate homosexuality with inherently bad acts like rape, pedophilia, and disease.
Sorry, but there is nothing fundamentally or inherently wrong with homosexuality. The beliefs of you and these zealots are indeed just that: beliefs, supported by no factual basis. That many zealots are working to take away our right to pursue happiness is immoral; I would never do that to someone, unless their pursuit was life-threatening. Homosexuality in of itself is not life-threatening.
Dave is right: telling a gay person that their love is an affront to God is highly detrimental, as is the phrase “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” It is hate by another name, no matter which way you slice it. You cannot “love” someone while at the same time “hate” the aspect of their life that makes them the unique person they are. You may claim until you are blue in the face that your actions are not hateful, but I am not fooled. You are desensitized to the true reality of your actions and the consequences of such.
Furthermore, as Dave also said, you must understand that God has different plans for every individual person. Obviously, you believe that His destiny for everyone is to act heterosexual (in reference to your claim that the Bible does not support homosexuality and that homosexuals are not allowed to act on their desires).
That is not realistic. Every human being has different wants and needs, including having sex with the person they love; God made us so that we are unique individuals.
The only “ultimate love” that any human can experience is being in love with the person they are attracted to. You obviously believe that such a person must be of the opposite sex. That is closed-minded and short-sighted at best. Not everyone is like you. No one can find what is right for them by reading the Bible. That comes from within themselves.
You are certainly entitled to your beliefs as you see fit. However, when you use them to proclaim moral superiority over gays, you have crossed a line.
Free Spirit, your reply just helped crystallize something.
Russ, when you believe that YOUR understanding of God is the correct understanding of God for everyone, that essentially He wants the same things for and from everyone, you are holding back your own relationship with God.
I know, it’s comforting to think that we are all in the same flock (and we are, at the end of the day), and that as the lambs of the Good Shepherd, we’re all meant to relate to God and one another in the same way. But it just ain’t so! And to try to insist that it is limits our own personal, special relationship with God and our neighbors.
It takes no small amount of courage to step outside the trappings of the flock, to own one’s own special, completely unique relationship to God and realize, “This relationship is mine. I am special. I am unique. God has specific plans which are JUST FOR ME.” At times, that can be a lonely place, and we might want to bring others into our plan so that we’ve got company. But while we can have companions at times, we will always come back to the reality that we are alone with God.
If you can truly own that, and stop trying to convince others that God’s plan for you is also God’s plan for them, you will experience a profound empowerment.
Be careful, however, because it’s a fine line between, “I am special and unique in my relationship to God” and “I am special and unique and BETTER and MORE RIGHT in my relationship to God.” Trust me, been there, it ain’t pretty.
Thanks for the conversation.
Peace,
Dave
Russ… your response came up in my email feed. A few things caught my eye. First: “the Bible does not support homosexuality”. Go away and read a book “What the Bible really says about homosexuality” Helminiak, Alamo Square Press. It’s quite an eye opener, not the least of which because it places the comments *in the cultural context* of the time*. And elsewhere it explains the mistranslations and politics behind some versions of the Bible. Mistranslations we often take fro granted. Helminiak is a Roman Catholic Priest, so it isn’t written from the viewpoint of some militant gay or virulent anti-church. I think you’ll be able to alter your opinion after that.
Second, you say that you have asked God to “call you to singleness”. Russ the book practically opens with “it is not good for man to be alone”. Think on that. And being single doesn’t give you once scrap of credibility when you come to trying to support gay friends. Paul was wrong. Man shouldn’t be alone. If you believe your Bible it was God who said “it is not good for Man to be alone (Gen 2:18) and I think that trumps Paul.
Third.. please drop the “orientation” description. You might start to understand a little more if you replaced that with “mock and deride him for BEING WHO HE IS”. It’s not an “orientation” that is some little discrete part of the person, it is the heart, soul and spirit of that person. And it’s not just being called names. Being gay is the entirety of their existence. We ARE creatures of passion and whom we love fills every quarter of ourselves. To sanitise that by referring to “orientation” is to marginalise the pain that happens when someone bullies, harasses, spits on you, kicks you, beats you until you can’t stand, or KILLS you, all for WHO YOU ARE. It’s not just calling people names.
Dave, thank you for your compliment. I am happy to have helped crystalize your feelings.
You are absolutely right: we are all unique, special individuals. God has different plans for each and every one of us. I pity those like Russ who believe that God’s plan for them is the same for every other human being. They’ve lost their ability to think for themselves because they are petrified by the irrational fear that religion uses to control people. It’s turned them self-righteous.
Madonna said it best in her mega-hit “Like a Prayer”:
“Life is a mystery. Everyone must stand alone.”
It’s the truth. We are all unique, special individuals with our own gifts to give to the world. Sally Field also said something to that effect in “Forrest Gump”:
“If God wanted us to be all the same, he’d have given us all braces on our legs.”
It is really saddening how these zealots are so unhappy and self-absorbed. Their “concern” for us alleged “sinners” is really their projection of their own insecurities onto us, under the guise of being “loving.” An oxymoron if I ever heard one!
Peace to you David.
Dave,
I understand that you believe my belief is not grounded in reality. However, in order to accept your solution for this issue, this idea of reminding myself that it is MY pain, I would first have to embrace that the majority of what I believe is utter rubbish. I hope you can see why this solution is not as straight forward as it sounds. The idea that everyone’s beliefs are equally valid and that “all roads lead to God” are very attractive, not least to someone who believes, as I do, that there is no true life apart from God. I agree that each person’s experience of God may be different, but in any case all experiences of God would be consistent with the character of the god being experienced.
You are correct in saying that I believe the Bible to be infallible. The Bible has been gathered from many texts, yes. It has been translated numerous times, though always from the original language to the new one, so to say it has been ‘translated and retranslated’ is a touch misleading. Minor edits have been made, but despite such minor edits from several different scribal traditions, the the old testament remains more intact than any other book of antiquity. As for the new testament, the number of manuscripts available–many of which date from within a hundred years of Christ–is staggering, with only minor differences. As for condoning slavery, the parts of the Bible that condone ‘slavery’ refer to an incredibly humane form of indentured servanthood, which was limited by law to a maximum of seven years. Slaves were to be fed and treated reasonably (downright comfortably, by the standards of the day) and payed a small wage, enough to get back on their feet at the end of their indenture. So yes, I stand by that.
The courage to step away from comfortably following the herd is a truly beautiful thing, but stepping out for the sake of stepping out seems foolhardy. Without first being convinced that there is a better path to follow, I cannot see the wisdom in abandoning this one, however attractive that other path may look. Sure, finding the path God wants you to take is important, but I cannot reject the path I’m on simply because it looks like a lot of other people’s path, and a person on the internet told me I should without explaining why. Sorry if that was snarkier than it needed to be. It just seems to me that a lot of people are telling me I’m wrong without taking the time to explain why. I can’t engage with an idea that is presented without foundation. I’m not saying your ideas are unfounded, simply that you haven’t shown me the foundation. As for being “more right” than other ideas, why would anyone choose to follow an idea if they didn’t think it was “more right” than others? If some ideas are not “more right” than others, why work so hard to convince me that my ideas are less right?
Free Spirit,
You are right when you claim that I am heavily invested in God. Quite honestly, he’s the only hope I’ve got. But we all invest in something. Do you truly, genuinely, deeply care for people? If so, you are truly, genuinely, deeply invested, and this too will cloud your judgement. I have carefully examined this and many other debates from both sides, deliberately seeking out the best arguments against what I was taught by the Church, because I wanted the truth, whatever it was. Tell me how to live more open-mindedly than that, and I will be forever in your debt.
I’d be more than happy to debate the historicity of the Bible or the basis of morality with you, though I feel that this may not be the forum for that. When I write here, I feel as though I am speaking where I am not wanted, and it is not my intention to intrude. Dave’s championing of his brother is truly beautiful, and I do not want to diminish that. When I originally posted I did so only in response to some very harsh words directed at the man who defriended Dave. While Dave (wisely, I think) refrained from harsh condemnation, others have not. I was shocked by some of this, though I am no longer shocked–only saddened–by the appalling things some say to homosexual people in the name of Jesus. I am more than happy to trade words and ideas with any of you, but my intention was never to trade verbal blows. I apologize for anywhere I have been guilty of doing so. While some have compared homosexuality to rape, pedophilia and disease, I don’t. I’m sorry if I’ve anywhere given indication that I did. Furthermore, I find the idea of human baby factories as laughable as you do. I believe God’s plan for humanity is much more beautiful than that.
To close, I’d like to remind you that I’ve never claimed moral superiority over gays, or anyone else. If life were about how ‘good’ of a person you were, I have no doubt most people, gay or straight, would finish ahead of me. Just last night a pretended not to receive a text from a friend who badly needed to talk so that I could get my precious six hours of sleep. How twisted is that? No, I claim moral superiority over absolutely no one.
You call me fearful, but I am not. What have I to fear? Honestly, even before I came to God did not fear Hell, but found myself unable to live as I wanted to without help. I AM concerned for those I see headed that way, but if I wasn’t–believing what I believe–I’d have to be completely heartless. What kind of person, seeing a drowning man, does not try to help, if they can? Put another way, what kind of person, having found an inexhaustible treasure, hoards it all for himself? This things make no sense.
David,
I just ordered a copy of the book you recommended, and Amazon tells me it will be here within 7-14 days. This will not be the first time I’ve heard a Christian scholar argue against the more traditional interpretation of the biblical passages on homosexuality, but I am willing to take a look.
As for God trumping Paul, that argument assumes that a) God and Paul disagree and b) that the Bible is fallible. I think we can agree that if the Bible is wrong, I have bigger problems to worry about, and probably shouldn’t be listening to the God portrayed within it any more than I should the man you say is disagreeing. In context, Paul was talking to a Church that was going through very uncertain times, in which starting a family would have been unwise. When I asked God to call me to singleness, I did so because I believe that God is enough, period. Its all too easy for me to say to someone “because you are gay, God is calling you to a life of singleness” if I’m willing to live that way. The truth is, as hard as it would be, I am.
As for the use of the word ‘orientation’ with reference to those being bullied–especially in middle and high schools–I am truly sorry if it offends you, but I’m not sure I follow your reasoning for changing my wording. While I can see–and indeed, agree–that sexual orientation is something pretty basic to who we are, it seems a little hasty to claim that that is “the entirety of their existence.” Is race nothing? Gender nothing? Interests, hobbies, likes, loves, personality, ability, hopes, dreams, all nothing? None of those are directly related to being gay or straight. I had no intentions of sanitizing bullying, and nor did I ever claim it was just calling people names. Describing bullying in all its horrific detail was simply not my goal, though I’m not convinced that the pain of being beaten until you can’t stand will ever compare to the pain of aloneness, which is my ultimate concern. Time and love will heal a beating, but the only thing that heals loneliness is friendship.
Hey Russ,
Thank you for taking the time to answer so thoroughly. At this exact moment I do not have time to do the same, but I would like to continue this conversation.
I would like to point out what I see as one factual error. You stated, “As for condoning slavery, the parts of the Bible that condone ‘slavery’ refer to an incredibly humane form of indentured servanthood, which was limited by law to a maximum of seven years. Slaves were to be fed and treated reasonably (downright comfortably, by the standards of the day) and payed a small wage, enough to get back on their feet at the end of their indenture.”
I’m sure that this was true some of the time, but the language of Leviticus seems to disagree:
Leviticus 25:44-46
New International Version (NIV)
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”
It specifically says, “slaves for life,” which is pretty different from indentured servitude which, as you’ve said, has a limited term.
Thanks again for your time and your thoughts, I plan to reply more thoroughly later.
Peace,
Dave
Russ,
I’m pleased that you are willing to read more material in your travels, but to suggest that the Bible is infallible is, to me, utterly ridiculous. There are more than a few treatises out there that list the contradictions over and over. And while you’re considering the infallibility of the book as a single item, consider the arguments and politics involved in just the Council of Nicea. That incident alone should oblige you to throw out the infallibility concept.
I’ll leave out Paul.. that issue is certainly debatable, however I don’t think Paul ever really left his Saul of Tarsus zealotry behind, and a lot of his writings appear influenced in that regard.
And a person’s sexuality is the entirety of their existence. To then tritely suggest that this somehow implies that those persons cannot be anything else as well is avoiding the point. You are entirely a son, a father, a brother.. being one does not preclude the other. It doesn’t offend me, but it concerns me that you lack fundamental understand on something so basic and important. Being gay does not preclude you from being male, or black, or white. But too many will tell you that being gay is wrong and must be changed. The bullying you are referring to isn’t because these kids play XBox. It is not something that is a choice, that they will grow out of or can change. And to tell a teenager that who they want to love is wrong is far more intrinsic to their self-view than it might be to someone older. That sort of judgement still hurts when you are older, but you can’t have missed the number of kids that are committing suicide these days. And suggesting that sexual identity is on a par with hobbies is .. mind boggling. I honestly can’t think of a example where a youth has suicided because the were bullied over their choice of sport, or interest, or hobby. And let me tell you from personal experience, the pain of being beaten is significantly worse than the pain of loneliness. And beatings can lead to death. Matthew Shepard died. Loneliness is an emotional state, and doesn’t typically kill. The physical pain from a beating dissipates but the understanding of why that victimisation occurred (read ‘hate/rejection/disgust’) lingers forever. It cuts deep and never leaves you. Twenty years later I still suffer pain (both physical and emotional) from the assault I suffered. Let alone the surgery and rehabilitation I had to go through. Loneliness is fleeting. Until you understand that criticising a person for being gay is not just discussing their ‘orientation’ but is criticising the fundamental “who they are”, you will forever be standing outside.
Russ, you claim you’re heavily invested in God because He’s the only hope you have. Haven’t you ever heard of the concept of personal responsibility? It is *your* life. The decisions you make are *yours* alone, not God’s. They should be made for *you* yourself, not God’s approval. I have hope in myself that I will become a better person than the one my past abuse has rendered me, but I need to do that *myself*, with the help of those around me, not a being I cannot see, hear, or touch. The propagation of God is what got me into this mess in the first place. It taught me all I need to know about personal responsibility and the shunning of it.
In your mind, I may be clouded in my judgment by heavily investing in the people I care about, but at least I invest in people whom I can see, hear, and touch. You can’t see, hear, or touch God. I prefer tangible reality; at least my feet are on the ground.
You want me to tell you how to live more open-mindedly? Simple: abandon all of the irrational, illogical, and unrealistic teachings that the church taught you and use your own mind to solve problems! Abandon the beliefs that turn you against people. That’s what I did and it has served me well. I am no longer irrationally afraid to think for myself; I don’t have to fear what God may or may not do to me. I go by the facts of life. And in my case, being gay is not a bad thing by any means because it is causing no harm of any kind to anyone, myself included.
As a child, I became homophobic out of necessity: so that no one would ever suspect that I was gay. It seemed the “right” thing to do at the time, but it hurt me because I knew that I would be hurt similarly if it had been done to me. That is what opened my eyes to the reality of life. And when I finally turned 18, I washed my hands of all that had influenced my decision to become homophobic in the first place: my religious teachings.
If you cannot live the way you want without help, there is a very simple solution for that: therapy. That’s what I go for and it has done wonders for me. It is based on the facts of life, not the “truths of God.” It helps me to re-gain my sense of self, which was nearly destroyed by the religious beliefs forced into me as a child, including the notion that being gay is wrong, evil, etc. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t save a drowning man any more than you would. I can be virtuous without the influence of unrealistic religion. Virtue and religion do not necessarily go hand in hand.
Hi again, Russ,
Let me assure you that I, for one, am glad that you are here and engaging in the conversation. Your thoughts and opinions are important and I want to hear them.
Following is a point-by-point response to your last post. I’ve tried to organize it somewhat, more or less by paragraph. The quotes surround the parts that you wrote:
“I understand that you believe my belief is not grounded in reality. However, in order to accept your solution for this issue, this idea of reminding myself that it is MY pain, I would first have to embrace that the majority of what I believe is utter rubbish. I hope you can see why this solution is not as straight forward as it sounds.”
Perhaps you can explain to me what the problem is with feeling and acknowledging your own pain. I’m not suggesting that you jettison your belief, I’m just suggesting that you take a moment to feel what is going on for you on the inside. Actually, it seems pretty noble for you to be feeling such tremendous concern for the well-being of your fellow humans. What is the problem with feeling that for a moment and then asking Jesus for guidance?
“The idea that everyone’s beliefs are equally valid and that “all roads lead to God” are very attractive, not least to someone who believes, as I do, that there is no true life apart from God. I agree that each person’s experience of God may be different, but in any case all experiences of God would be consistent with the character of the god being experienced.”
Can you clarify what you mean by, “all experiences of God with be consistent with the character of the god being experienced”? There seems to be a suggestion that a god other than your God (of the Bible) is of an inferior character. In other words, other paths to God are invalid.
“You are correct in saying that I believe the Bible to be infallible. The Bible has been gathered from many texts, yes. It has been translated numerous times, though always from the original language to the new one, so to say it has been ‘translated and retranslated’ is a touch misleading. Minor edits have been made, but despite such minor edits from several different scribal traditions, the the old testament remains more intact than any other book of antiquity. As for the new testament, the number of manuscripts available–many of which date from within a hundred years of Christ–is staggering, with only minor differences.”
I can’t make a strong argument about the translation process for the Bible, I simply haven’t the knowledge. I will ask, however, which “original language” you are referring to. Jesus most likely did the lion’s share of his teaching in Aramaic, yes? Is this the language from which most of the translating has occurred, or is it from texts written in Greek?
“Minor edits,” however, is a bit misleading. The Gospel of Thomas was completely redacted by the Church. That’s a big edit.
“As for condoning slavery, the parts of the Bible that condone ‘slavery’ refer to an incredibly humane form of indentured servanthood, which was limited by law to a maximum of seven years. Slaves were to be fed and treated reasonably (downright comfortably, by the standards of the day) and payed a small wage, enough to get back on their feet at the end of their indenture. So yes, I stand by that.”
I’ve addressed this already.
“The courage to step away from comfortably following the herd is a truly beautiful thing, but stepping out for the sake of stepping out seems foolhardy.”
I’m not suggesting that you step out for the sake of stepping out, I’m suggesting you do so because your tightly held beliefs are causing suffering for others.
“Without first being convinced that there is a better path to follow, I cannot see the wisdom in abandoning this one, however attractive that other path may look. Sure, finding the path God wants you to take is important, but I cannot reject the path I’m on simply because it looks like a lot of other people’s path, and a person on the internet told me I should without explaining why. Sorry if that was snarkier than it needed to be. It just seems to me that a lot of people are telling me I’m wrong without taking the time to explain why. I can’t engage with an idea that is presented without foundation. I’m not saying your ideas are unfounded, simply that you haven’t shown me the foundation.”
I’m not saying that you should abandon your faith, I am challenging certain aspects of it. I think Jesus and his teachings are amazing, I know many Christians who are among the most courageous and inspiring people on Earth. (A favorite example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Berrigan)
If you want to know the foundation for what I’m saying, please read the piece I wrote again. Imagine that YOU are the one being told that your love is invalid. Besides, what did Jesus have to say about gay people and their relationships?
“As for being “more right” than other ideas, why would anyone choose to follow an idea if they didn’t think it was “more right” than others? If some ideas are not “more right” than others, why work so hard to convince me that my ideas are less right?”
Is the entirety of your faith based on the idea that homosexual acts are a sin? I’m not trying to tear down your entire belief system. Again, I’m challenging one aspect of it.
As far as being “more right,” I’ve no problem with that as an internal position. As you say, why else would you choose that path? But can you accept that your path is more right for YOU, not necessarily for everyone? If you can’t accept that, than you have set yourself against roughly 2/3 of the world’s population, and laid the foundation for Holy War.
I’m sure that you are not the actual Crusader (convert ‘em or kill ‘em) type, but you should understand that when your viewpoint is, “I have the one and only truth,” you have planted the seed for that mindset.
Peace,
Dave
Thank you, we all need validation. Do I have to say that the bible also speaks out on not eating shellfish, shaving your beard and adultery? But you don’t see people getting up in arms about that, do you?
You know, I agree with you! I have heard many preach about homosexuality, yet, they divorced, moved on, left their own children for another man’s children. I have heard preaching about tithes, yet, they do not pay tithes. So many preach, yet, they do not listen to their own words. If the Bible says to not judge…well, then, they shalt not judge. I get fed up with so many people preaching the Bible, but, they are the first to disobey God. God does not want us to cause strife, yet, how many people cause strife when it comes to other people’s relationships. I feel so sorry that so many feel so powerful that they think it is ok to judge. They feel that they have the right, but, nobody else does. This is a story that really made me think!
That is perfectly stated, Latisha and Annie. Some of the most “un-Christian” people I have met (un Christ-like, maybe?) have been people who thump the Bible and then act perfectly horrible and spiteful toward fellow human beings. I am an atheist, but feel my behavior, ethics and morals are more “Christ-like” than MANY ‘Christians’ whom I meet. Thank you for summing it up.
Awesome story. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for this article and your reporting. What you do is appreciated.
I posted it to my LGBT Group on LinkedIn to spur members to read your article and to make comment. I also scooped it at Scoop.It on my LGBT Times news mashup.
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