My younger brother is gay. Gay as laughter. Gay as the day is long. One of the finest moments in my life, and one of the greatest compliments anyone has ever paid me, was the day he felt safe to come out to me. He’s in his mid-30s now, but he’ll always be my little brother. And man, I love that kid. He’s brilliant, he’s funny, and he’s kind. And he just married a phenomenal man.
I was always predisposed to like his husband because, y’know, he’s my brother’s partner and therefore has automatic status in my heart. The wonderful bonus is that I really like him. He’s brilliant, he’s funny, and he’s kind. He’s a cool dude to hang out with. He also stood by my brother like a rock when my brother had a life-threatening cancer that cost him his left eye.
They married in May. It was a wonderful ceremony in which I was honored to stand by my brother, supporting him in his vows. My eyes teared up like they always do at weddings. I had the joy of watching two people commit to a lifetime together. It filled my heart.
Folks started posting photos from the wedding on Facebook, and I proudly reposted photos of the ceremony (with me looking awesome in my new suit, of course). Shortly after that, I received this message from a FB friend:
“Hey David, I am removing you from my friends list…sorry man, that latest post is way over the top! Homosexuals joining in “Holy” matrimony…I don’t think so??? The Holy Bible speaks out against homosexuality and speaks highly of Holy matrimony between a man and a woman. It’s nothing more than a slap in the face to those who choose God’s Word, for homosexuals to join in a Holy marriage. I’m only defriending you so I don’t have to look at your anti-God stuff anymore…nothing personal!”
Wow.
This came from a man I used to work with. A man I respect in his dedication to his family, and in his desire to live a moral and ethical life. A man with whom I have had some very interesting religious debates. He has become a Baptist preacher since we last spoke in person, and I suppose that makes this message unsurprising.
But, I was still surprised. I was taken aback. I needed a moment. I was hurt.
I was inclined to hurl some expletives in his direction.
But, only for a moment. He’s not really that important of a person in my life. I had actually at times grown rather tired of his Facebook postings…I don’t have a great need for fundamentalist dogma in my day. So, on some level, good riddance.
I sent him a letter at his church, expressing my disappointment in his withdrawal. I had a few friends read the letter before I sent it, to make sure that it didn’t contain too much bile. I’m not surprised that I haven’t heard back from him.
The situation got me thinking: What if this hadn’t been about my brother’s wedding, but about MY wedding? What if it hadn’t been from a distant friend, but from a beloved family member?
Ouch.
How many millions of gay kids (and adults) have had that exact thing happen to them? How many millions more will in the future?
I’m sorry.
I’m sorry for that pain. I’m sorry for that rejection. I’m sorry for that isolation.
I’m straight. Straight as a yardstick. Straight as an arrow. I am in your corner. If I could take on that pain for you, I would.
I love you.
If you’re gay, I think that’s wonderful, and I’m truly happy for you. I wish you all the love and joy in the world.
If you’re straight, I think that’s wonderful, and I’m truly happy for you. I wish you all the love and joy in the world. And I charge you, I charge you to imagine the above scenario played out with YOU as the target of rejection. Imagine the people closest to you telling you, essentially, “You are fundamentally flawed and I want nothing to do with you.” Our LGBTQ brothers and sisters face this everyday. Please don’t forget that.
The poor, misguided soul is no longer in my life. That’s okay. My brother and his husband still are. I just hung out with my brother a few weeks ago, and it was a blast. He’s brilliant, he’s funny, and he’s kind. I couldn’t be prouder to call him my brother. I love him, and love wins, period.
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Almost sounds like being disfellowshiped(or excommunicated) by Jehovah’s Witnesses, only the entire congregation completely ignores you from then on. I hope people start to realize the danger of dogmatic, hypocritical religions someday.
As a woman terribly afraid she is going to lose the woman she wants to marry and share her life with (as a result of judgements dressed in love’s clothes), I so appreciate your story. We are making headway, and if we are strong, and civil and our motivations are those of love, I think, in the end, that we’ll win…I hope. Thank you for the story. I especially appreciate it because my brother is like you. He’s one of my best friends, and one of my greatest supports. Thank you very much…
he became a Baptist preacher and had to defriend you so he wouldn’t inadvertently see anything gay? methinks the lady doth protest too much.
What an incredible brother your brother has! Loved your post; you are a loving, compassionate man and it sounds like your brother and his husband are too. Must run in your family. Thank you for a great blog. The so-called Baptist minister-he’s a loser; he lost the opportunity to have a good, decent person in his life.
I’m so sorry you had to deal with that loss. I’m personally a Christian who has chucked everything in the Bible except for the specific bits that Jesus said Himself. It’s good stuff, even if he never actually said it. The rest is a bunch of cultural garbage smushed together by King James’ lackeys. Forget that it never even overall condemns homosexuality. And don’t even get me started on the problems that come with constant translation and changes by various church authorities over the past centuries. There’s also the part where the writers claim that God commanded them to commit genocide. Garbage. And totally not what a loving God would have given us. Blech. So anyway. You’ll forgive me if I don’t see it as an authoritative piece of instruction. Jesus was one righteous dude, and I have a gut feeling he would have happily performed a gay marriage ceremony to wed two loving people in holy matrimony. Because more love is what matters.
I love you. Thank you, Im all choked up.
Sorry I’ve had to put this on here Mike, but I can’t find anywhere to put new comments. Len and I have just had a conversation with Tanya who lives with us with her four kids. She and their father have just realised that one of her son’s could be gay. Dad is in prison and she talks to him every night and he has said that when he comes out he’ll beat it out of him. We’ve told her that not in this house he won’t. We have tried to explain to her it is not something you can beat out of them, they either are gay or aren’t. Unfortunately, Ukraine is a very homophobic country so he will have big problems as he grows up. This morning is the first time she’s mentioned it, although Len and I have thougth it likely for some time. Those of you who pray, please pray that we can help her understand and she can then make his father understand. Being in this country he will have BIG problems, but hope that we will eventually be able to get through to him that we are there for him when he needs us. He is only just turned six, but we feel he will need a heck of a lot of support.
dear brother,
you’re fabulous and so is your little brother. but god bless you for being the big brutha. your post made me cry, just a little, because i know people are on the verge of change. and soon, we won’t have to see posts like this, because people will have fully evolved. love you! – kd
Reblogged this on Theotherpage's Blog.
Love is hard to find for anyone. When you find Love & you want to spend your life with that person it should be celebrated by everyone. After all God is Love. Best wishe’s to your brother & his husband. May they have a long & happy life together.
Wow, I love what you have written. You are absolutely right about…everything. Amazing. I wish the best to your brother and his man and to you as well 🙂
As an Atheist this made me laugh. Not in relation to your truly heart felt story and brother’s life. More laugh at people of faith who fail to realize doing what that “preacher” did is against the very ethic in which the bible portrays. Sure, gays and lesbians MAY be going against the MAN MADE word of the bible, but so do the very people that follow it. Turn the other cheek, don’t judge others etc. Hypocrites walk this land, but so do the happy people that laugh at those hypocrites. The best to you and yours!
Very nice story, I hope your brother keeps his health for long happy days 🙂
Sadly, as a Christian, I have had many of my gay friends de-friend me because they think I’m too Godly or something. You have a great point, no argument here but I just wanted to remind some people in the gay community to not assume because someone loves God that they hate or dont want to know how your doing.
Thanks
Dom
Personally, Fstopfun, I find the converse to be equally true: People assume that Gay people want to turn away from God, want to cast him out of every corner and fabric of their life… Many YEARN for God, want to go to churches, want to commune and celebrate the Lord, and be thankful for all the blessings that HE gives them… However, many Gay people are forced “into the closet” about their religion even among their own kind because of how Christians and other religions as well ostracize them. Think of it this way: If you wanted to join a club, and all the members of the club tell you you’re not welcome, why would you keep fighting again and again to join a place where you’re forced to feel uncomfortable and treated badly? If more Christians opened their hearts and their minds and their church doors to Gay and Lesbian people, I think you’d find many more people in the pews. That is why, to be Gay and to be Christian, you almost have to come out of the closet twice.
It really depends on the person. If you say that you don’t hate and want to know how they’re doing but can’t refrain from constantly running down important parts of their lives then … well, they’re going to defriend you. It makes no sense to say, “I don’t hate you, I’m just going to tell you you’re going to burn in hell every single time you talk about the nice dinner you had with your partner!” Dude … I have news for you. If you behave like that, that’s hate.
I’m making an assumption here, and if this doesn’t go for you, then I’m sorry. But there’s an awful lot of people who seem to think that constantly telling someone they are broken, bad, and evil for being in love is “nothing personal.” Like people who say, “I don’t hate women, but they’re all a bunch of lying bitches,” or “I don’t hate black people, but they have way too many babies and can’t stay out of jail.”
The scenario in this article is unfortunately all too common. When LGBT youth finally have the courage to come out too many times they are made to feel that they have to sacrifice things in their life just for being who they are. For those raised in a strong religious environment they are made to feel they are unacceptable to God for they way they love. This is not true at all and the one quote from the bible you can believe is true no matter what is God’s promise ” I will never leave you or forsake you” . Gay or straight and all in between God loves us as he has made us. It is important to make that abundantly clear to all people. Nothing is worse than to feel that you have lost all who love you including God because you love differently from straight people. There are many churches that accept LGBT people just as they are and those of us no matter what faith need to reach out to our brothers and sisters and let them know that God will always love them, they are not flawed just different. So to any LGBT person reading this.. Come just as you are into the all embracing love of God, a God that loves you because of who you are and dos not condemn you for the way you love.
Thank you for sharing this. It’s beautifully written, and one of the most heartfelt pieces I’ve read about truly loving our LGBTQ loved ones.
I shared this on Facebook and my newsfeed has lit up with re-shares. Your words are reaching people.
Thank you again.
amen
You are a wonderful human. I’m glad that you, your brother, and his husband all have so much love in your lives. One of the things I try hardest to do is cultivate and appreciate the love in my own life, and acknowledging others’ kindness and brilliance is one of the things that makes me constantly aware of how lucky I am. I hope that people who are so uptight they need to argue about sexual orientation and sin with strangers on the internet will someday learn to relax and see the bigger picture; that love is there for the taking and it will make you so damn happy when you do reach out to it.
I’m not jumping into this debate. There is no debate. You the nail on the head when you said that the most important thing is love. Who in their right mind would argue for less love in our families?
Curiously, the Bible also condemns gossip, slander, and other things too many of us consider to be “lesser” sins. Last I checked, a sin is a sin, so while I cannot name homosexuality as something I think about or practice, I find myself wanting in too many other areas of Biblical excellence to be qualified to sit in judgement.
My heart goes out to you all. Without judgment. I’ll leave that to the Divine God (who I am not).
Your humility is refreshing!
here here!
Admittedly, I will never agree to some of the positions posted here. I understand that, as do many of you. Regardless, I will always respect you AS A HUMAN BEING, and as capable of making your own decisions, even if those decisions wouldn’t be mine. While I do not like attempts to redefine terms that have been commonly accepted for thousands of years, I also cannot imagine the conflict that LGBT’s go through in our society. Worse (and more tormenting) for me, I cannot offer any “advice” on how to “change” your situation, because I am; 1) not qualified to do so; and 2) you may not be receptive to what I have to say, anyway.
The only observation I can make is that the Bible clearly denounces homosexuality (and that’s a fact). No amount of apologetics or bad exegesis can change that. That being said, we Christians have not exactly done our part in making those with whom we disagree feel welcome, regardless of their sitz-im-leben (“where they’re at in life”). If I can say anything to you all, I would say “I love you in spite of yourself,” as I hope others can love me in spite of myself (my wife has her way of reminding me that I was not exactly a prize catch, either! haha).
Peace to you all.
And the bible clearly ENDORSES slavery–and as you say no amount of apologetics or BAD exegesis (and we’ve heard it all!) can explain a way so that that no longer applies but the anti-gay stuff does. Of course being a fundamentalist is a choice, and people can change or abstain from that if they prayed for guidance–but we respect their right to be wrong–though in their minds they are right.
Eric, I realize that you are trying really hard to be open and understanding. But you are wrong about the Bible. The Bible does not, ever, condemn same-sex relationships under some umbrella proclamation. It condemns *some* same-sex acts in *some* contexts – but they were specific cultural contexts that no longer exist today, or are still roundly condemned by all, as in predatory sex. It makes no mention, anywhere, of loving, monogamous same-sex relationships. None. It doesn’t condemn that, nor does it condemn intimate relations within that context. It simply doesn’t mention it at all. That has been agreed upon by most Biblical scholars who do not have a fundamentalist agenda to support, and slowly but surely, Christianity in the main is embracing this understanding. I imagine there will always exist a fringe Christian fundamentalism that condemns LGBT people, just as they condemn brown people and dancing and other expressions of joy. But I can’t fathom a God that would buy into such silliness, so I will ignore them as I ignore white supremacists who still try to use the Bible to justify their own fear-based hatred. Know that your effort is appreciated, but until you can let go of this myth you’ve been taught about the Bible condemning an entire subsection of God’s creations, you can’t truly be an ally to your LGBT brethren as they seek equal rights.
Mindy, you hit the nail on the head here and are exactly right about the Bible never saying a single thing about the types of same-sex relationships that are common in contemporary Western cultures. At best, a Christian extremist like Eric might argue that the Bible condemns same-sex intimacy *outside of* marriage–as it supposedly does for heterosexual intimacy–but there’s no way you can apply such scripture to same-sex marriage itself. Illicit forms of sex are not the same as marriage, otherwise people could similarly use scripture condemning heterosexual sex acts in order to argue that heterosexual marriage is a sin. These idiotic, superstitious Bible humpers need to seriously start using some logic. They’re not doing themselves any favors with their absurdly inappropriate application of mythology to real life.
The bible denounces LOts of things, none of which have christians carrying banners at funerals, or actively spweing hatred over: lets say: fornication, divorce, and participating in daily activities during the monthly cycle, and dont forget to treat strangers well –you never know– they may be angels!
It seems strange to me that THIS,is what some choose to be the line they cross in the sand on sin. If youve EVER had sex out of marriage, you are EQUALLY sinful. THAT is clearly stated in the bible … but what did Jesus do with the so called fornicating, tax collecting, sinners? He made them his peeps. he got to know them, he spent time with them. He loved them.. and they loved him. I’d say a lesson from the Man himself is worth emulating,
And the bible also lauds a lot of things — like treating those stranger-angels well by throwing your daughters outside to a seething crowd to be raped because they were disturbing someone’s sleep.
Doesn’t sound like a book I’d want to take too many life lessons from, actually.
I was covered with chills reading this. Thank you so much for sharing and being an ally! It’s just as hard sometimes to be a loyal ally as it is to be fighting the good fight.
Don’t you love people that think they have the right to judge others? Who are they to tell two people that love each other that they can’t be together. Just let them be happy and pay attention to your own relationship. I also like that they know what God thinks and wants. How arrogant. My God would never be cruel nor stop love in this world.
Right on, Rev. Tom 🙂 You said it best. Wondering if you’re OUR “Visiting” Rev. Tom?
No Donna I am not. don’t know you and am not visiting anywhere currently. 😉
Reblogged this on quietcornertidings.
I am a christian woman, middle age, I’ve been married and divorced three times, am a recovering drug addict (almost 16 yrs.). I am straight, but havn’t been in a relationship since my last divorce. I know many homosexuals, some in my own family. I have met many wonderful friends through my sister. THEY are mostly lesbians. THEY show me the utmost respect by not displaying, for lack of a better word, their lifestyle in front of me, knowing I am straight. We all go out together and have a blast !!!! If an occaision comes along, and they know certain people will be in attendance whom they know will not show me the respect they do , they tell me, so I’m not hurt or offended I wasn’t invited. I appreciate that from them, it’s part of why I love them as friends. I know what the Bible say’s about homosexuality, so do they. I love them and are not about trying to change them, or tell them they are going to hell. I am saved and try to live a Godly life, but I still sin every day, I know it, whether I realize it at the time or not. Which brings up this origional story, I understood it very well, I feel quite sure the only reason he said Baptist minister is because that’s what he was, a Baptist minister. I see much, much worse on FB than this story, and I feel the gentleman writing it was telling of his feelings, not trying to get a yay or nay out of it. Some of you don’t beleive there is a God or Heaven , well, I do. I say I’d rather beleive in a saving, loving God, and when I die find out it’s not true than not beleive now, and find it was true after all. I hope to meet you all in Heaven, God Bless
You “love” them so much you make them hide “their lifestyle” from you. Gross.
And Pascal’s Wager only works on morons. You theocrat nutbars need to come with new material.
“You “love” them so much you make them hide “their lifestyle” from you. Gross. ”
Right?? And she’s so pleased with herself over her treatment of these “homosexuals.” Just pleased as punch.
Hi Linda, Thanks for sharing your perspective with us. You might want to be aware that there is no real “lifestyle” , only lives..and your friends are doing that right in front of you. It is nice of them that they support your entire life while you only support a select part of them. From the most important biblical principles and the ones Christ emphasized the most, you might want to learn something from them. They may be some of your best teachers in your quest for Heaven.
Hi Linda:
I am sure that you follow all of the rules in the bible faithfully, I’m sure you don’t eat pork. And you don’t round the corners of your head or mar the corners of your beard. I’m sure you follow God’s instructions for buying slaves. No mixed fibers in your clothes, that’s for sure! And children who curse their parents and adulterers, as well as the homosexuals are of course stoned to death.
Because you do all of the holy things, you are so holy yourself.
Just one problem, Jesus taught that following all of these crazy Jewish laws was not the point and god did not really care about that any more. That is why it is called Christianity, not Judaism.
Like so many, Linda, you claim to know what the Bible says, but I’m not sure if you’ve really read it. Especially the Jesus parts. I know, I know, all the good stuff is in the old testament (and revelations).
BT (an atheist by the way)
If Linda followed the bible, she wouldn’t even be telling us. Women are supposed to be silent on spiritual matters.
i appreciate your respecting your own views while respecting your friends’ irght to be themselves. And thank you for not holding it against them when they lovingly excluded you. I see you as a loving christian and im sorry that you have to endure the judgments of others about YoUR lifestyle and your past. I agree with you about God. If breaking the so called rules of ONE religion means eternal damnation: if that’s the cost of loving, then so be it. Im gonna burn– for supporting LOVE in all its forms! Besides I think Jesus would approve. Some of the things he did were against his OWN religion (judaism). So there!! I don’t expect anyone to agree with all of my choices, but i think they should respect my humanity enough to not persecute me for who i am, (BTW i am straight)
Linda, you’re so wrong I don’t know where to begin.
First off, homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice. It is an orientation with which you are born.
Secondly, your friends should never have to hide who they are from you. That is not respect; it is oppression. Straight people like you never hide your “lifestyle” from the world; why should your friends? Respect is a two-way street. If you’re not comfortable with their “lifestyle” (when in reality it is no such thing), you need to seriously re-think your feelings for them.
Thirdly, there is no such thing as a “Godly” life. That notion has skewed your way of thinking. For you to judge people based on this narrow-minded way of thinking is wrong. You seem to think you’re superior to those who do not follow your belief system.
I can only hope you re-gain your ability to think rationally someday.
Linda, the bible also says that as a woman, you shouldn’t even be listened to on matters of faith. So get back in the kitchen and be silent, as God commands.
That. Was. Awesome. Seriously awesome. I’m a fan of anybody that uses logic over faith as faith continuously fails just like within this religious nut who removed somebody. And is often times used as a wall by the shallow to explain themselves. One doesn’t need faith to live. You need the basic necessities. Faith may allow some to feel holy. As Chris Rock said in Dogma: “It’s that you believe.” And this is coming from an Atheist mind you. I believe in logic and science and Bill Nye the Science Guy.
Thank you for your post. My sister is similar to your ex-friend but is starting to come around after six years. My partner is transgender and is torn about coming out to her family. I don’t blame her. I would have a very hard time myself, I’m sure. I love her no matter what she decides. On Facebook I’m with “him” but all of my posts show me going out with her. Those in the know, know. Those that don’t, apparently don’t want to see the obvious. That is fine with us.
Thanks again,
Sheila M.
Thank you so much for writing this! I’ve shared it on my PFLAG (parents families and friends of lesbians and gays) Facebook (facebook.com/pflagwashco) and website (www.pflagwashco.org).
I’d also like you to check out anotetomykid.com and maybe write a note to your brother and his husband. ANTMK provides a great platform to write a note of unconditional love to their lgbt loved one. Please check it out and thank you so much again!
Hi Jason– message me on my regular facebook page and I will discuss with David and see what he might want to do. Thanks! Rob
Thanks for writing your story! My own father was unable to attend my wedding to a wonderful person, and it did hurt more than he will ever know…..
Thank you for writing this. I am currently coming out to my family and friends and have been dreading the unfriending that will begin. This helped me see that anyone who defriends me over this is the one losing out….not me.
I “came out” when I was 15 as “bisexual’ like most gay people I’ve found. Coming out as that would somehow ‘test the waters,’ you know? And if it were so bad, I could retreat and joke it off, right? I remember that everyone in the family rolled their eyes and didn’t know what to think. I called my mother up crying ,telling her the deepest secret embedded in my very soul. My mom, who is one of my closest friends you could say, told me over the phone, “Well son, you must take after your mother because I’m bisexual myself.” I could have died with laughter.
Only a month after coming out, I met my first boyfriend as if a miracle of space and time. It was because of him that gave me the strength to reveal the entire truth of my sexual orientation. Coming out of the closet was the most liberating thing that had ever happened to me, next to finding Spirituality in my own pursuits rather being taught what to believe, rather how to believe. I remember being a very dark soul mostly because of my homosexuality and being treated like an abomination for what I knew I was born with. I understand the torment that LGBTQ people are faced with. It’s truly torturous and despicable what we LGBTQ people have to go through at a young age and in adult life. I feel that as a society who oppressed women, blacks, immigrants, beatniks/hippies, goths/punks, LGBTQ’s, and just about anything that stood out against a white picket fence, we should quit by now as we’ve ;earned our lesson, but it seems that there will always be some minority to oppress, and isn’t that DEpressing?
An advanced and intelligent species who points guns at each other and battles over social and economical ignorance? What makes us so “advanced” or “intelligent” after I’ve shared that? This could really turn into a novel, I feel, as I’m an addicted conversationalist (lol), but I just wanted to say that although my own big brother has a harsh time at sharing his emotions without sounding cruel, I know he cares about me, loves me, and admires me. I know that he’d protect me and I’d protect him, and I know that no matter how much we’re fighting it seems, we’d get each other’s backs.
About the guy who defriended– I just feel sorry for the people who he’s going to brainwash with his ignorance and hatred.
If you have a so called friend that “unfriends” you, they were never a friend in the first place. I was so lucky with my friends that none of them batted an eye lid. Most of them were not shocked. You are you and it shouldnt make one hell of a difference 🙂
Christian here. Asexual. Think you rock. 🙂
Thank you for sharing your story. Congratulations to your brother and his beloved. I wish you and your family an abundance of peace and happiness. Cheers!
Thank you for this post. I am a Christian. I love Jesus. I work in a church and my life IS my faith, so I know people like your former friend. I also know many people who feel as I do. who dont believe anyone should feel rejected or hated just because of their lifestyle NO MATTER WHAT it is. I choose to love people, because the Jesus I know loves people. Period.
it is so refreshing to finally see a post from someone like me! i have friends that are LGBT, and have had for almost 2 decades. i am also a life-long christian (saved about 12 years ago), and have worked in the church. i always feel like i’m being a hypocrite because my faith goes against the love i have for my friends. i am proud to say that one of my best friend’s is gay and i do my best to support him in his quest for love. my parents taught me to hate the sin, love the sinner. not that people are necessarily doing something wrong, but rather that none of us are perfect, and it doesn’t matter who or what we are, we are all still children of God and should love each other no matter what.
this story was very touching. i’ve always been afraid to post anything about LGBT rights on fb because of how some of my church friends might react. i think this will change that.
” my parents taught me to hate the sin, love the sinner.”
That’s well and good, but that concept doesn’t apply to your gay friends in this context because their sexuality is not a sin. It causes absolutely no harm to anyone, and only brings joy to the people involved. You need to drop this overused line; it is downright vile and deplorable.
I absolutely despise the word “lifestyle” in conection with sexual orientation. My lifestyle is that I have a house in the suburbs with my (male) spouse, with a decent lawn and flowers on the borders, we have jobs that we commute to, we enjoy opera and theater, and we’ve been together for 30 years. Expressing one’s sexual orientation is not lifestyle.
That’s exactly right! Thank you, Al. “Orientation” and “lifestyle” are two different things. “Orientation” implies traits which are biologically set, whereas “lifestyle” implies choice. Sexual orientation is most assuredly NOT a choice. To any readers on this thread: if you are heterosexual and believe otherwise, I have just one question and one request of you: (1) at what point in your life did you make a CONSCIOUS choice to be attracted to the opposite gender? (2) Please provide a detailed description of how you programmed your anterior cingulate cortex to not react with attraction to the same gender.
Love the sinner. Hate the sin. Bullshit..! Just because one is gay, then he is a sinner? And just because you are straight, then you are NOT a sinner?
Gay and Straight are labels straight people created to have dominance over the ‘not straight.’
C’mon, not all gays are perverts and not all straights are faithful. Not all hetero marriages last and not all homo relationships last either.
We are equal. We co-exist. Sexual orientation or preferemce should not be a reason to exclude people. All we need is respect for one another. We cannot and should not impose our own standards on others just as we do not want their standards imposed on us.
Let people be.
Many people are confused on the sin issue. Any sexual relationship outside of marriage is sin, man/woman, woman/woman man/man, Christian or not.
Love folks for who they are, right or wrong all of us will be judged by God alone not man.
Bro AJ, so then this means that a married same-sex couple is NOT sinning, correct? Be fair and apply your logic equally to all situations.
Another thing you didn’t point out is that in many countries gay couples don’t have the luxury of being able to marry, so can’t do anything within marriage. Another thing many don’t have a choice over.
The main issue about a so called sin is anal sex. Straight people do this aswell as gay people. The problem is the gay people get all the attention for it.
True. And not to mention, not all same-sex couples engage in anal sex in the first place! Same-sex female couples simply can’t, and not all gay men are into it (myself included).
People who are confident in their own sexual identity do not generally fear peole who are different. When I hear some right wing blowhard announcing that he fears that I will convert his children to homosexuality, I chuckle that he fears that his kids would LOVE to have GAY SEX. Phobia is fear. What the fundamentalists fear most is truth , knowledge and their own moral weakness.
What makes me so sad is that I am a life-long Christian, and I am increasingly embarrassed by my fellow Christians and the intolerance that they spew. Ever since I was a child, I was taught that we must aspire to live our lives as Jesus lived his. Jesus loved everyone unconditionally, and that is what is expected of us. Jesus taught that those who recite scriptures to defend their bigoted views are not very God-like. These haters have no room in my Christianity, and I wish they would break off and form some other religion so I wouldn’t get lumped into their intolerant category.
Then please, please talk to them! When you hear anti-gay sentiment, It’s up to Christians like you to speak up in church, on Christian blogs, in Christian newspapers and say, “You do not speak for all of us.” The world needs more people like you to make your views known, to let others know that you can be Christian AND tolerant.
I agree that the world needs to hear more from the tolerant Christians who are out there. There are many Christian denominations and churches who not only “tolerate”, but welcome gays and lesbians. I attend such a church, and I am increasingly seeing rainbow signs on other churches in my community … not just the historically non-traditional Unitarian churches, but also the Methodist church, which has been around for hundreds of years. Unfortunately I feel like the Republican party has been hijacked by the anti-gay Christians who are the squeaky wheels in the media, and that is what has given Christianity a bad name. I see it as analogous to the way many Westerners lump the Muslim extremists in with all Muslims, who are an extremely peaceful group of people, but get bad press from the few extremists who misinterpret their teachings and become hateful towards others. Yes, we need to recapture Christianity and bring it back to the do-unto-others beliefs under which I was raised, but as long as the wealthy denominations like Catholicism are using their wallets to push their anti-gay agenda in the media, I think it will be very difficult for the more moderate but less wealthy denominations to swim up that stream.
Well said Julia, I’ve often thought I was the only person of faith who believed this. We want people to treat us the way we want to be treated, yet when it comes to homosexuality we think it doesn’t apply anymore?
I’ve always accepted my friends and family for who they were, straight, gay, smokers or not, drinkers whatever their lifestyle and choices. I know who I am and how I choose to live my life and they accept me for that, so I equally accept them for their choices.
I have a gay brother in law and I stood up for him at his wedding, and I too feel I have lost friends over it, but I don’t think they were true friends anyways, my family will always come first.
Thanks for sharing 🙂
Great point Julie– please check out some of our other evoL= articles… they are specifically targeted with information to support the true Christianity and remove the hate agenda we see so much. Great post. Thanks!
It isn’t right to group all Baptists as homophobes, just as it isn’t right to judge love. People spend too much time blaming the groups, rather than the individuals. I find it offensive to have words put in my mouth since I was raised in a Baptist church. I do agree fully with the author’s message, I just wish they wouldn’t have added the dig on Baptists, because it completely contradicts what they are trying to say.
I was also raised Baptist. I have two brothers who are Baptist preachers. I no longer belong to this denomination because of the uncomfortable intolerance that is spewed daily at the pulpit, and barely have a relationship with my brothers. The author was right on, and stereotypes, sadly, aren’t always that far from the mark. I have been to many different types of Baptist churches, and the kindest is still far from so—-preaching to love the sinner and not the sin. When a 2000 y/o book dictates how we approach our fellow man/woman, then there’s a problem.
Check out the American Baptists – they rock!
Yes, the American Baptist church is not homophobic as a rule. One in my city is very inclusive.
A sin is a sin.thiers is no different than ours.We all sin and god loves and forgives us all if he is sincerely asked.My nephew is gay,I love him very much and his partner.Does not mean I agree with his life style.Only because I worry about his salvation.
Just as we worry about your salvation for being just as wrong as you believe his “lifestyle” to be.
Homosexuality isn’t a salvation issue, it’s a moral issue, like sex before marriage or stealing from work. In fact, Jesus says as much about sex before marriage as He does about homosexuality…nothing. To Jesus, the most important thing is love, so much so that He died for it!
read my comment above about “lifestyle”
This article demonstrated more ‘Christian values’ than the Baptist preacher man likely ever will. Love, tolerance, and acceptance are core to Christianity; for someone to presume to be a true Christian, but then outwardly discriminate against anyone, is nothing but a fraud.
Also, I’ll mention to the guy named Darryl below who missed the boat on this one: the writer was never trying to get everyone on any side. He was simply taken aback by the rude and heartless message which unnecessarily explained the unfriending. A normal person would quietly click ‘unfriend’ and carry on, probably never to be missed or even noticed as absent. But to write such a message prior to clicking ‘unfriend’ had only one goal: TO HURT. It was rude, immature, spiteful, and only shows that the Baptist preacher was the one who was upset and couldn’t cope that not everyone was on HIS side.
As a recently married lesbian woman…..thank you. Thank you for your words…thank you for your heart…thank you for realizing what some others do not…that all people regardless of sexual preference, should be granted the same rights as others. Love is not about gender or religion….our hearts don’t think that way…sadly some people do though 😦 thank you…..your brother is lucky to have you in his life.
Hi there, I read your compelling story. I hope that maybe if you have time you would message me as to enter into dialogue about this matter, just as a social informing matter. I am happy for your family, and pray that everything is going well. However, I am worried about it’s affect on my children and now grandchildren, who are straight, as time goes on. I to have a loved relative who is L, at least that is what was indicated to me. I have reached out to her many times without response. I actually know the person she lives with. Also a wonderful lady. I don’t know who performed your brother’s wedding ceremony, but I don’t know that I would call it ‘Holy Matrimony’. I would call it legal, binding, a union, but I have difficulty with marriage. I am okay with gays and just about everything until I have to content with the actual sexual act. Then I have a serious problem. However, on the other hand, I also hate watch people ‘make out’ from one degree to another on tv, movies, etc. Why? I consider that a strictly private and personal matter, and it loses and great deal when it is performed for ‘entertainment’. It demeans the status that it should be held up to. I don’t like it when I hear about what other couples do or don’t, or ask me the same. It’s no one’s business. Therefore, I say, keep it to yourself and don’t talk about it. Lord, knows, straight people have done a real sad thing to what should be marriage, however, I don’t think that it is going to go any differently with gays. I have worked with gays. As people, like anyone else, you are going to like them or not. And frankly, I don’t think that I have ever met one from either sex, that did not have wonderful manners and very nice to work with, … except one.
I can except the union, but not the act. I just can’t get around that, but I also don’t think that it should become a matter of political forum, because that set up a feeling as if I must take an opposite opinion politically and vocally. Is that going to be accepted by the gays that I have the right to voice my opinion. Holy Matrimony is a sacrament, I will be horrified if the Catholic Church for one ever performs a same sex marriage. I’m sorry, but we just can’t pick and choose what it directly state in the Scriptures. At the same time, I am called to love, as any other Christian. And I truly do. If these marriages become ‘legal’, well, I guess that is what the people vote for, I’m not going to be able to fight the world on that, However, marriage is a different category from Holy Matrimony. I don’t want the political gay power to affront my faith denomination for what that preach. What they preach is loving celibacy in these matters. And in my mind, that is a gay marriage that I would support. One that is a celibate, spiritual, loving, legal, etc. union … legally.
What you’ve mentioned is exactly what’s wrong. Married actors and actresses HABITUALLY commit adultery by kissing others on set, on stage, in movies, TV, musicals, plays, etc. If people are so morally outraged, why are there not protests against 2nd marriages? Divorces? Etc. There are SO many things that the bible prohibits, but only 1 seems to get the attention and vitriol of CERTAIN Christian denominations… Ask yourself why one sin is placed above another. Romans 3:23 my friend. Remember that. God have mercy on us all.
You want the author to “discuss” with you, but I think the article makes it clear that this is not up for dicussion! You either support equality or you don’t. I can be civil to someone who subscribes to the fundamentalist interpretation of scripture, but I have about as much support for your adherence as you have for “the act”. It is ridiculous to use words like “horrified” and then try to say it’s not about hate. There is nothing horrific about any two adults loving each other.
“I’m sorry, but we just can’t pick and choose what it directly state in the Scriptures”
I’m sure then you still play the harp several times a day? Do not eat prawns? Do not wear clothes of a mixed fibre? Stone adulterers? Make your wife sleep somewhere else while on her period? Cause those are all in the scriptures. And if you say, well that doesn’t count because it’s old testament, well then, why is it that my fellow Christians are so quick to quote the very few pieces of scripture that even remotely have to do with homosexuality but are less quick to point out the very many teachings of Jesus Christ? I think he said more about loving each other than about hating gays.
Understand, please, that every gay couple who has a religious marriage believes in a God (or Gods) Who accepts and loves them as they are, Who smiles on their love and Who supports them in their marriage—even the sex part. There are dozens or hundreds of sects of Christianity, more than that when you look through history, including churches which have believed different things at different times while keeping the same name, and including movements and theories and beliefs that gained traction and were fought over amidst the same church. Everybody “picks and chooses” from scripture, extrapolates from it, differs as to its position in informing our beliefs and lives, decides what is relevant and what is a cultural relic or impossible to keep to in a modern culture that, for example, bans slavery and the stoning of adulterers. Gay couples who enter into a religious marriage believe God deliberately made them as He made them, loves them unconditionally, and is pleased by people loving one another, including them loving each other. They believe this overrides the ancient Hebrew cultural proscription on “men lying with men as with women.” Some of them serve barbecued pork ribs at the reception, too. Under the concept of freedom of religion, they have the right to that belief and that ceremony and to the use of words like “holy.” They are not accountable to any human religious authority for that, only to God, whatever He might think of them.
That religious freedom does run both ways. Churches have the right to approve or disapprove of same-sex marriage, and if they have the right to consider same-sex marriage valid and have the state allow them to bestow marriages on same-sex couples, they also have the right to not approve of it and have the state allow them to not bestow marriage on same-sex couples. Religion and the behavioral statues it might press on its followers are opt-in; people can refrain from exercising a particular secular right as a condition of membership (Catholics might not divorce or have abortions; Mormons might not drink alcohol, various conservative Christians might avoid premarital sex, Muslims and Jews might keep certain dietary restrictions, et cetera); members of a certain church marrying only in heterosexual couplings falls under this banner as well.
I’ve often wondered why more conservative churches don’t make use of this to strengthen and differentiate their own versions of marriage, to proclaim the specific meanings of marriage to that brand of faith. Because marriages do differ by culture, by religion, by church. I will never have a Catholic marriage, gay OR straight, because the nature of it does not suit me or my view of what marriage means. I will never have a Mormon marriage, or a Baptist marriage; there are aspects to those churches’ ideas of marriage that I don’t want or don’t need. I might, on the other hand, have a United Church of Christ marriage, or a Unitarian Universalist marriage. Or, if my church ever gets around to allowing it, I may have a Lutheran marriage. It will, however, be between me and my wife and our church(es) and the state and God, and not between us and somebody else’s church.
If gay Catholics want to petition their church for expanding the Catholic sacrament of marriage to gay couples, that is their business and their choice of how to go about it, whether they want to change the whole church or splinter off from it or do their own thing and wait to be excommunicated or what. It’s not my fight and not my place to say you’re wrong when your policies reach no further than your church and the faithful thereof. It’s when you reach out of your church, to marriage as the whole societal concept used in various forms by practically every culture ever . . . telling me I can’t get married in my church or my state because your church forbids it is pretty much the same thing as trying to tell you that your church has to let me get married in it because my church or my state allows it.
Some weeks ago a fairly prominent church in my state came out against Minnesota’s gay-marriage-banning constitutional amendment which is on the ballot. Representatives of the church said they did not support the amendment. The next day, someone wrote a letter-to-the-editor pointing out that this same church’s articles of belief defined marriage as between a man and a woman, and took it upon hirself to proclaim that this was that church’s “real” position on the matter. BUT THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES. A person—and a church—can be secure in their own way, their own beliefs, while still supporting—or just acknowledging—the rights of others to do it differently. And this is important, because every faith and subdivision thereof has different beliefs, different customs, different priorities, different readings of the same scripture or different scripture altogether.
This is the distinction we make when we call some of you bigots. The distinction between “I believe X, but if you believe Y is okay then you can do Y” and “I believe X, so you people who believe Y shouldn’t be able to do Y.”
I’m not even going to get into your issues with “the” sex act, because nobody’s invited you to take part, let alone forced you to. I don’t pass judgment on your sex life no matter how much it might squick me; do the world a favor and try returning the favor.
Reading this comment, it sounds like. . . basically you are against gay marriage because you are wigged out by the idea of gay sex? It seems like that is really what most of the moralizing boils down to. Which, frankly, doesn’t seem like a public affair to me. As for the semantics of a legal marriage versus “holy matrimony”, there are plenty of churches, like the UUs, that are happy to perform marriage ceremonies. No one is arguing that every denomination should be required to perform marriage ceremonies for same-sex individuals. Honestly, many churches are very vocal about the fact that their discomfort with “the act” as you put it, is more important to them than valuing the love that individuals share. That is their prerogative. But let’s not pretend that traditional christian churches are the only institutions that can provide “holy matrimony”. There are many faiths, and many denominations, and marriage is a social contract for living in our society, which is NOT entirely dominated by any christian church.
The separation of Church and State should do enough justice to not even have a battle over these moot points in our legal system. We have more important non-prejudice issues that our nation should tackle. Churches are not governments.
Kriss, you don’t have to approve of, like, think about, talk about or participate in “the act” – so why should it bother you? I am straight, and there are some sexual acts that I find enjoyable, some I do not. Some are down-right off-putting – so I don’t go there. I’m talking about behaviors that most straight people engage in. I just don’t concern myself with what doesn’t float my own boat, so to speak. If someone I loved wanted me to do something that I found repellent, I’d have to think about it, address it. Otherwise, not my business, not my problem. Who cares if you, a straight person, find gay sex distasteful? Gay people probably find the idea of straight sex distasteful. Sooo . . . don’t do what you wouldn’t enjoy, do what you enjoy. And give others the same right. No one’s love is more holy than anyone else’s –
For your reply to Kriss: Props. Mad props Mindy. 🙂
Hi Kriss,
Thank you for taking the time to comment and express yourself honestly, I regret that I was not able to respond more promptly.
I would like to pose a few questions to you.
You wondered if a gay person could accept you for holding different views about a gay relationship: How would you feel about associating with someone who you knew fundamentally disapproved of your primary relationship? I think it might be an elephant in the room which would hamper a true friendship.
You spoke of your concern for your kids. I’m not sure what the problem is, if your kids are straight, no amount of gay marriage will change that. If your kids or grandkids are gay, would you deny them the love of a partner?
Regarding “picking and choosing” in scripture: both the OT and NT EXPLICITLY condone slavery. It is presented as the word of God in Leviticus that you may own slaves and pass them on to your children as slaves for life. Nowhere in the Bible is this refuted (please correct me if I’m wrong) and this argument was used for years against abolition. Do you think slavery is acceptable? Is it at all possible that the social norms of the time influenced the wording of the Good Book?
As others have already stated, the “Gay Movement” is not trying to make churches perform weddings. As you said, most of the activism is around legal protections.
Regarding the act itself, well, personally I try not to think too much about what anybody is doing in their bedrooms, as long as no one is being hurt.
Thank you again for reading and commenting.
Peace,
Dave
Mine is a background where they completely shut you out for being anything but straight. They are still beating, sometimes even killing anyone who has the guts to come out and proclaim their orientation. It has taken a while for me to accept the changes around me and I have surely learnt to live with the fact that America is a fast nation and nothing is a surprise here. David mentioned some on slavery and the sentiments from the bible. That left me wondering, was the bible written for a periodical time and will there come a time where we shall read a different bible. Why do we have different versions of the bible anyway? That concluding a fact that I cannot quote the bible for direction, then am lost.
First and foremost: good riddance is right. You don’t need hateful, small minded people in your life.
Second, I just want to say that people like you give me hope. Thank you for being so accepting and so loving toward your brother. When my husband and I married a month ago, I was really proud and excited to have couples–both gay and straight–dancing at our wedding and celebrating our relationship. I’m just bummed that I won’t be able to do the same at their weddings until the laws change. It’s not fair. We need to stop hate, I don’t think you’re being anti-God. I think your being anti-hate, and there is nothing wrong with that.
What a beautiful story. What a wonderful man. Wish he was my brother!
I don’t know you, but I’ll be your friend.
Good for you, too bad for the baptist preacher. My longest friend, the guy who was best man at my (straight) wedding, and for whom I stood up twice, defriended me on Facebook AND in real life over my support of gay marriage. I’d known the guy for over 40 years, put up with his slightly racist views and his rednecked wife for years. It sucks, but if that’s the way they’re going to be, we’re better off without them
Poor Christians….(
(Great article)
The idea that your gender, the way you identify with it, and your sexual orientation somehow affects your goodness as a human is ridiculous. You do not choose the way you identify with your gender or your sexuality. You can suppress it. You can deny it. Or accept it. Religion doesn’t have a monopoly over goodness or morality. Or marriage. Let’s not forget marriage, which essentially celebrates the union of two (or more) people. People should support their fellow people. End of story. I don’t believe in hiding behind your so called ‘values’ to spread hatred and ignorance. The earth was here long before we were, and we should respect that. To think that you are so important that you get to take rights away from others, that you get to pass such harsh judgement on them, to tell people what “God” thinks of them is arrogant. No human being is superior to any other being. People who don’t support gay rights don’t support human rights. We all want the same things, we want to be loved and understood, and to love and understand. To intentionally hurt another person, to abandon a family member because of their sexual persuasion, now that’s wrong. There is no argument here. Next time, if you feel the need to criticize, shame or condemn another person, look up at the stars, acknowledge your own insignificance, think of how much we don’t know, will never know… To focus on something so small, something that honestly does not affect you, when the beauty of the universe surrounds us, is astonishing. To go out of your way to make the lives of others miserable can only be considered inhumane, no matter your religious background. The only monster here is the one who considers another less than human. My love goes out to all those affected by the hate and ignorance of others. I hope that one day we can move passed this absurd barrier that is keeping us from loving and accepting one another, and being more productive as a society.
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My beloved cousin is gay, and has been in a relationship with a wonderful man for some years now. I wouldn’t care if he were gay, straight, trans or purple with pink spots – I would still love him as much as I do.
Two of my best friends are a married gay couple. Both fantastic men who are great to hang out with.
My sister and I are both bisexual. Our mother wouldn’t care if we married a man or a woman, as long as we were happy. I recently married my wonderful (male) fiance of five years and next year my sister marries her long-term partner of eight years. She is poly and he is happy for her to have girlfriends and other boyfriends – secure in the knowledge that he will always be her primary and the one she will never stop loving.
Many of my friends are LGBT – and some of the nicest people I know. I may not understand their individual lifestyles, but I understand that they love me and I love them and that’s all that’s important.
I’ve been defriended several times for supporting equal rights (I won’t say “Gay rights” because sexuality has no place in this argument in my opinion). I always say it’s their loss and not mine; I do not need or want two-faced bible-thumping bigots in my life.
Congratulations to your brother and his husband; may they have a long and happy life together!
When are these religious types going to accept that ‘God’ is a theory? Darwin’s theory has more solid facts to back it up. When they make statements like: ‘God created man and woman’ they should reflect that the correct statement is: ‘One or more (mostly male) humans SAID God created man and woman.’ From what I have studied and read ‘God’ has kept extremely quiet on the matter.
Chance
Chance, they don’t call it the THEORY of evolution for nothing. it still hasn’t been actually proven so it’s still a theory.
You have a misunderstanding of the use of the word “THEORY” in a scientific context. It is also called the THEORY of gravity, but I have yet to meet anyone who would dispute the existence of gravity.
“Theory” is the highest level of “proven” that exists in science.
Stange but most scientist say of things in science of things not proven, the theory is ….. if it’s been proven they say ‘It has been proven that ….’
God created man and woman. God didn’t make a mistake and made man woman and woman man; then He would later punish them for making them that way. That would be so unfair and God is not unfair.
I blame it on the environment, the upbringing, the peer pressure, these horrible times we are living… But I mostly blame it on straying away from God.
We accept these people. They are our friends, our sons and daughters, but we do not accept the corruption of homosexuality. Homosexuality is a condition and homosexuals should be helped and redirected. Homosexuals can be counselled to help them go back to the boy and the girl that once were.
caroline
fuck you, you stupid bitch
Said in true love. Gay people on this forum would never call this out as hatred though. Oh, no! It’s the Christian declaring the truth that is obvioulsy the most hateful. This one quote from Ray captures the spirit of all God-rejecting, homosexual promoters which is deep hate for those who actually believe the Bible as the Word of God (and not some ancient manuscript which is irrelevant today as this blogwriter and his minions support).
god , thanks ray you beat me to it
Be quiet, Andy. Christians have no capacity for declaring the truth because they don’t know it.
Was Ray being rude with his comment? Sure. Was he being hateful? Yeah. Is that really a problem? NO. Homosexuals and their allies are more than entitled to hate people who are responsible for creating and maintaining a culture in which homosexuals are systematically discriminated against, tormented psychologically, and even murdered. Hating someone for hurting you is a lot different than hating someone for being born with certain traits that you don’t like.
To Andybrown it seems that since I didn’t follow my comment to you I can only see the bit of a reply that Droopy responded to. Your misguided interpretation of scripture and your opinion of me carries no weight. You are the type of Christian that gives the rest of us a bad name. In my last post I highlighted Jesus most important teachings if the rest of the book confuses you or you think it disagrees with those teachings throw it out!!!
Most of my work is done as an Interfaith Minister in multi cultural settings though I am also a bishop in an ancient but minor Christian sect and thus have the Authority “to bind and loose on every matter…” and I tell you that Jesus would bless a same sex union were he here today and would not recognize you as one of His!!! save your vitrol because I am not following this post either. Don’t have time to read hundreds of emails. Take God out of the little box you are trying to shove Him in!!
your ignorance is appauling. Yes homosexuality is a condition, a natural human condition. Homosexuals can not be fixed because they are not broken but the way God intended.
to all the homophobs posting here you really need to take a look at yourselves and figure out what in you fears this so much. don’t even go to the we need to save them because we love them excuse. Look at the pain and suffering you cause. There is no love in that!!!
My feelings exactly! Sexuality is something you are born with; ignorance, intolerance, hate and fear are taught.
Rev Tom, I think a lot of people who think they are Christians are going to be very surprised IF they manage to get to heaven who has also got there.
You are hilarious, Caroline. I actually thought you were being serious for a minute.
I am sad for you the moment you expel your last breath from this earth. That’s the time your soul will be lost amongst the hatred souls searching for the path to the gate of heaven as you would have expected to be during your human years. Well, surprise , surprise, it’s not going to be there because your lost soul stray so far away from your misunderstood and misguided teaching of God had led you to this place. You think it’s hard to find your way back now, you just wait. My sympathy to you my fellow sinner.
Arguing against someone who made a ‘religious’ remark through the use of ‘religious’ rants is not going to get anyone anywhere. I encourage everyone here to use logical arguments instead of insensitive rebukes. I appreciate a good comment, and not a blanket remark, such as: that everyone who has sinned “has strayed away from ‘God'” or a condemnation of that condemner. They both don’t actually have any argument.
If there is anything more confusing than arguments intertwined with faith? I don’t understand what you actually believe, while you don’t know my philosophy. Aren’t we letting our emotion and religion crowd out the actual root of the matter.
Fallacy
So, according to your theory, all straight people could similarly be “counseled” or “turned”, “corrupted” or “converted” to homosexuality, including you, if you were put in a concentration camp and inundated with gay imagery, shock therapy, and other forms of “corrective treatment”? Just so I’m clear…
If the Christian god created all humans in his image (like the bible says he did) and we are essentially what he is, then why would he be considered ‘perfect’ and us not? If we were not supposed to be gay, than why make so many of us that way? It’s like he’s making us fall in love with someone and then going “oh sorry, I know I made you to love this sex, but you have to have sex with this other one.”
I’m sorry, how hypocritical of you Caroline. You clearly speak from a naive and inexperienced perspective. You wouldn’t know homosexuality isn’t chosen BECAUSE you distance yourself from it in fear. Educate yourself before you make comments on websites claiming to spread the word of God when in actuality you’re playing God. Homosexuality is not a conditioned by modern society- hate is, and unfortunately you have strayed from your journey with the Lord by spewing venomous, hurtful and hateful comments on websites such as this one. You have the misconception that gay men want to be women and lesbian women want to be men- well you are mistaken. Get your facts correct before you make self-righteous comments such as above. Have you tried speaking to a homosexual? The irony lies where you have a boy who attends church, and does not stray from God – who happens to love a man. It’s not straying away from God that is humanity’s problem- it is self-proclaimed religious people such as yourself that do not practice what they preach! Seeing as you have homophobic views- I would say it is safe to assume you are probably racist and sexist too? No? Then why the sudden unequal treatment for homosexuals? EVERYONE IS EQUAL- and it says that in the bible. And if homosexuality is a sin, fine, then leave that between me and God- it has nothing to do with you. I suggest you take your nose out of other’s business and just promote love as opposed to making malicious comments as above. God bless you and may he forgive you for your hate.
Gregory,
Thank you thank you thank you!!!
Well said, Gregory. This is way Caroline and her ilk operate (notice the similarity to, say, toddlerhood): See something you’ve been told by the elders is ‘bad,’ run from it in fear, then curse it from afar. Never, ever stop close to it so you can understand it for yourself, never question what the elders said because if you do (they said), you will burn for all eternity. Better to play it safe and hate what you don’t understand, than bravely love in God’s name. Right, Caroline?
C’mon – all of you who are so quick to damn what you know next to nothing about: You are not children, for Gods’ sake. Grow up, get out there, open your heart and get to know some real LGBT people. Find a group of LGBT activists and get to know and understand them, look in their eyes and see their hearts. Then see if you still feel like cursing them, or if, instead, you feel the Spirit of God within you, opening your heart to a new understanding. I dare you.
Could you be counseled to become gay? We know these “counselings” can cause lasting damage to people. Many gay people have known they were gay since a very young age. They were born that way. How could you think God made someone gay if he didn’t intend them to be gay. There wasn’t even a word in the Greek or Hebrew languages at the time of the writings of the books of the Bible, and Jesus never spoke of it. You are just picking and choosing the parts of the Bible to follow to fit your own hate filled agenda. Do you follow the rules in Leviticus on what you can and can not eat? If your husband died before you conceived a child, would you marry his brother? Are you open to your husband having many wives? The Bible is translated to meet agendas, and it is sickening…..
When you are able to tell me when and how you decided whether you were left or right handed I will accept your notion that sexuality is a choice!
Hi Caroline, Thank you for sharing your point of view. I am going to assume that I know many more actual gay people than you do “in theory”. I can tell you emphatically that you are wrong. Most gay people I know have as strong , if not stronger relationships with God that you seem to portray for yourself in your post. I am not sure why you arrogantly think that God would provide you information on other people’s private sexual instincts, any more than those reading your post would have insight to yours. Your judgement and decision making on behalf of others is a far greater sin according to the Bible than the “corruption of homosexuality” could ever be construed to be. I deeply hope your find direction on this issue and continue to grow in spirituality.
Caroline, you are so misinformed as to be funny, if it weren’t sad. Bottom line is that it really doesn’t matter what *you* blame it on, because it doesn’t affect *you.* You can blame it on anything you want – you’ll still be wrong. “Counseling to “help them go back” doesn’t work – that has been proven over and over, to the point where at least one state is about to outlaw it as abusive. More importantly, though, the fact that hundreds of thousands of LGBT Christians (who live and worship and love God with all their hearts) are all around you is proof enough of your ignorance on this particular issue. You don’t love them, Caroline. You pity them, because you see them as ‘less than’ yourself. They don’t need or want your pity – at least the many I know don’t. They are LGBT Christians who have been exactly who and what they are for as long as they can remember, and are perfectly fine with who they are, who they love and their personal relationships with a loving God. They don’t want your approval or your pity or your misguided “love” – they want you to respect their individual rights. If you want to be part of a church that continues to discriminate and not recognize religious marriage for LGBT people, that’s your choice. Find one and stick with it – but you will be left behind in the progressive trek our country is slowly but finally making toward God’s love.
Nope, it really, really isn’t upbringing or peer pressure or environment. How do I know? I am an adult daughter of two moms. I could sing “The Amazon Alphabet” when I was 5. My favorite comic was “Dykes to Watch Out For.” I have been to more Womyn’s Music Fests and Take Back the Night events than you can shake a stick at. This IS my culture, and I love it- but I’m also straight. I even had a little bit of reverse coming out fear as a teen- worrying that I would lose my place in LGBT culture if I was straight, that straight marriages so often ended in divorce, that my moms would be disappointed. If sexual orientation was a choice I might well have chosen to be a lesbian. Trust me, if I didn’t “catch it” from my environment, it can’t be caught.
Four years ago I married one of the best guys on the planet. Ironically the two people who taught me everything I know about how loving, respectful partners treat each other, who have been teaching this lesson to me and everyone they meet for over 20 years, and to whom I give much of the credit for the success of my own marriage, could celebrate my wedding, but not there own. But, to quote Kate Clinton, a man can still get drunk in Vegas and marry a hooker at the Elvis chapel. The sanctity of marriage is preserved!
Dear Preacher Man,
Above everything, God is love.
That’s all.
Love, me.
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Facebook and social media sites are soap boxes for anyone’s personal view. I’m increasingly hiding or unfriending people in Facebook because their posts add nothing to my life. I think it’s somewhat naive to think a work colleague would share the same beliefs or values as yourself. Being upset about this surprises me.
I learned a long time ago, the only acceptance anyone needs is self acceptance. As a gay man I just get on with my life and do what is right for me.
Please stop trying to get every single person on our side. You don’t need them for a fulfilling life.
Stop trying to get religion on your side. It aint gonna happen.
Stop comparing gay relationships to heterosexual married in the church couples. We’re different.
Surround yourself with people who do matter.
Equality is a mindset.
Very well said, Darryl! I couldn’t agree more.
“Was this Holy Matrimony?” two issues first every legal marriage is a civil contract and if it happens in a church the minister or priest is acting as a representative of the State in signing the license. That’s what makes it legal. If the marriage is done by clergy it is then also a blessing of that union and is holy matrimony. I don’t recall whether the author stated where his brother was married. Here’s the thing a marriage of any type done before God is the union of two souls in abiding love and the specific “nasty bits” 😉 don’t really matter.
I don’t mean to confuse. Other religious denominations may and probably do perform the legal conferring of a marriage, but few call it Holy Matrimony. In the Catholic Church that is a Sacrament. Most denominations are not ‘Sacramental’ Churches, if any other.. I am referring to the Sacrament, not the adjective. Thank you for that comment.
You missed the point of the article completely. It wasn’t about one person or getting everyone on our side. The article was about a man who, despite loving his brother unconditionally, might not have truly understood the rejection that we experience in our lives merely by virtue of being homosexual, who may never have pondered that idea all that deeply because loving his brother has been easy.
No, I did not miss the point. If I were in those shoes, I also would be compassionate. Truly, I did not miss the point. And even though I might disagree with certain things, some things are just not my place to espouse on and I never would have dropped a friendship over it. I would try to understand, but in the grand scheme of things, I would myob. (mind your own business) Basically, could a gay person accept me and love me even though my thoughts on the subject differ from his/hers? Would you and could you remain my friend? If I taught my children one view point of life values and you the other view point of life values, how does the future look for our children? Do straight people have the right to vocalize their thoughts and expect to have their government listen to what they want, as much as a gay person? If vocalized, is that considered Hate? Or is it just exercising the same rights as is allow the Gay forum?
Kris straight people have always had the right. Not-Straight people have not and, in many parts of the world, still do not. Do you see any Kill the Straights laws a la Uganda?
Hate speech is considered hate, yes. So, if you’re only reason that some citizens of American can’t get married is because YOU don’t want them to, then yeah you’re a hater.