My younger brother is gay. Gay as laughter. Gay as the day is long. One of the finest moments in my life, and one of the greatest compliments anyone has ever paid me, was the day he felt safe to come out to me. He’s in his mid-30s now, but he’ll always be my little brother. And man, I love that kid. He’s brilliant, he’s funny, and he’s kind. And he just married a phenomenal man.
I was always predisposed to like his husband because, y’know, he’s my brother’s partner and therefore has automatic status in my heart. The wonderful bonus is that I really like him. He’s brilliant, he’s funny, and he’s kind. He’s a cool dude to hang out with. He also stood by my brother like a rock when my brother had a life-threatening cancer that cost him his left eye.
They married in May. It was a wonderful ceremony in which I was honored to stand by my brother, supporting him in his vows. My eyes teared up like they always do at weddings. I had the joy of watching two people commit to a lifetime together. It filled my heart.
Folks started posting photos from the wedding on Facebook, and I proudly reposted photos of the ceremony (with me looking awesome in my new suit, of course). Shortly after that, I received this message from a FB friend:
“Hey David, I am removing you from my friends list…sorry man, that latest post is way over the top! Homosexuals joining in “Holy” matrimony…I don’t think so??? The Holy Bible speaks out against homosexuality and speaks highly of Holy matrimony between a man and a woman. It’s nothing more than a slap in the face to those who choose God’s Word, for homosexuals to join in a Holy marriage. I’m only defriending you so I don’t have to look at your anti-God stuff anymore…nothing personal!”
Wow.
This came from a man I used to work with. A man I respect in his dedication to his family, and in his desire to live a moral and ethical life. A man with whom I have had some very interesting religious debates. He has become a Baptist preacher since we last spoke in person, and I suppose that makes this message unsurprising.
But, I was still surprised. I was taken aback. I needed a moment. I was hurt.
I was inclined to hurl some expletives in his direction.
But, only for a moment. He’s not really that important of a person in my life. I had actually at times grown rather tired of his Facebook postings…I don’t have a great need for fundamentalist dogma in my day. So, on some level, good riddance.
I sent him a letter at his church, expressing my disappointment in his withdrawal. I had a few friends read the letter before I sent it, to make sure that it didn’t contain too much bile. I’m not surprised that I haven’t heard back from him.
The situation got me thinking: What if this hadn’t been about my brother’s wedding, but about MY wedding? What if it hadn’t been from a distant friend, but from a beloved family member?
Ouch.
How many millions of gay kids (and adults) have had that exact thing happen to them? How many millions more will in the future?
I’m sorry.
I’m sorry for that pain. I’m sorry for that rejection. I’m sorry for that isolation.
I’m straight. Straight as a yardstick. Straight as an arrow. I am in your corner. If I could take on that pain for you, I would.
I love you.
If you’re gay, I think that’s wonderful, and I’m truly happy for you. I wish you all the love and joy in the world.
If you’re straight, I think that’s wonderful, and I’m truly happy for you. I wish you all the love and joy in the world. And I charge you, I charge you to imagine the above scenario played out with YOU as the target of rejection. Imagine the people closest to you telling you, essentially, “You are fundamentally flawed and I want nothing to do with you.” Our LGBTQ brothers and sisters face this everyday. Please don’t forget that.
The poor, misguided soul is no longer in my life. That’s okay. My brother and his husband still are. I just hung out with my brother a few weeks ago, and it was a blast. He’s brilliant, he’s funny, and he’s kind. I couldn’t be prouder to call him my brother. I love him, and love wins, period.
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Let me make this more simple for everyone. Why? We can all read the bible and take different meanings from it. We can all pick the verses that work to justify what ever we want to. The reason for that is the bible is vague. It has conflicting stories and view points. It was originally written in a language that is now dead. Debating it over and over and over will not change the facts of history. The bible was written long after Jesus was on earth and we all know how a tiny little 2 pound fish can become a whale. Oh wait, that is in the bible. Facts get changed to make them more exciting than they really are. Christianity was a religion that came out of no where, and was changed and changed to include more beliefs and traditions of all of the other religions. This was done to create an environment in which more and more followers were brought in, due to this new religion believes the same as their old religion. Am I saying Christianity is wrong? No way. I think we all have the right to believe in God, aliens, Buddha, or whomever we seek guidance from to help us be a better people. Which is the point isn’t it? A comment was made in earlier feeds about how someone was tired of the same old argument by people support marriage equality. Well I am tired of the same ole argument from Christians. Every time they get backed into a corner it always leads back to, “well it is faith.” I have to tell you how stupid that makes you look. So what you are saying to someone is that you believe more in what is an essentially imaginary being, over a physical being standing in front of you. Does this seem logical to anyone? Not to me. I think God has to be looking upon us all as human being and thinking, “What in the world did I do?” Human beings destroy everything around us based on greed, lust, and envy. Maybe we recall those things from the bible. Those are the 7 deadly sins. Those are the only 7 sins specifically listed as sins. Those are the only 7 sins that send you to hell. Once, you break down the 7 sins all of us on earth are guilty of each and every single one of them at some point of everyday. My belief is simple. Do not toss a bolder at a glass bottle. If you are not free of sin, do not judge another person. Do not think you have the right to tell another person they are wrong or right. Do not think you are better than another. Do not think you can decide what rights another should or should not have. Take a look in the mirror and ask yourself what rights would I want to have taken from me. Until you are able to comfortably give up those rights, do not ask another to. God created us all as equals. He did not say I created one person to be superior and one to suffer punishments of said person. The bible says we were all created in God’s imagine. Making each of us equal in his eyes. The bible does not give a value system to sins making one more or less important than the other. So if all sins are equal, we are all created equal, and we are all guilty of sin then I guess we are all in trouble. I truly believe that God’s intent for us everyday was for us to wake up in the morning and want to do as right as we can. I think he wanted us to be as kind to one another as we can possible be. I think he wanted us to build each other up and not destroy each other based on how we view his word. I think we have gone far beyond anything God wanted us to take from his word. More blood has been shed in God’s name than any other reason in history. I have never seen a verse in the bible that says kill thy neighbor. I personally do not want to be considered a part of any religion that thinks it is ok to harm another. I do not want to be a part of one that says hey you are better than another. I want a religion that teaches love, acceptance, and inclusiveness. Which is what I think God intended but over time we have completely turned from. Consider this the bible was written over a 1000 years after Jesus was on earth, everyone agrees? No way the word can be the same. Jesus was on earth when the Romans were in power, correct? The Roman culture believed that woman were no more than breading stock. (I do not mean that to be ugly, I do not think that way. I am simply making a point) Romans believed that their male lover was their partner. Now we can fast forward to when the bible was written down. Do we all agree that it was written during a time that King’s ruled? When King’s decided how the people believed? Yes it was. It was also translated under the rule of different Kings. Maybe we do not understand where the King James version of the bible came from. Well, King James was a King. Under his rule he decided that he wanted a divorce. The current bible of the time did not allow that to happen. So as King, he decided that he would just change the bible to allow him to do so. All of this leads to the big point. Now, fast forward to today. What is the largest, richest corporation in the entire world? I will give you a minute to think about that. Is it Microsoft? Apple? BP? No. The correct answer would be the Catholic Church. They are so powerful that they became their own country inside of another country. They have most of the world protecting them. They answer to no other country. I see everything wrong with this idea. So this leads me to my main point. No matter what parts of the bible you decide to follow. No matter what god you follow. No matter your opinions or views. It boils down to a very simple thought. We are all guilty of sin. That is proven everyday. Everyday we are reminded that we as humans are killing everything else on earth for our greed. The only animals that are surviving our rein of terror are the ones that we feel are beneficial to us and our survival. That can be for us to eat or for companionship. Either way anything that competes with us for food, for space or can harm us; we are killing off. We are cutting down all of the forests. Killing all of the plants. The list goes on. We have to understand that this makes all of us guilty of sin. If God wanted us to treat the earth this way, he would not have had Moses build the arch to save the animals. Therefore, if you are guilty of sin, look in the mirror. Until what you see in the mirror is sin free and willing to give up your own rights, do not worry about anyone else. It is none of your business if it is one man and one woman, man and man, woman and woman. Let God decide at the gates, since he does reserve that right in the bible. If you spend your time working on yourself and insuring your place in heaven, you truly will not have time to worry about another person’s salvation. Trust me, the guidelines the bible sets out makes it a full time job. God loves each of us. He respect each of us. Show the same to all of God’s creatures.
To address the original blog. I commend you on your love, respect, and devotion to your brother. I admire your ability to judge on the important part. You decided to love your brother first, not judge what you may or may not think is right. You accepted your brother’s partner simply because of his devotion to your brother. His partner stood by him through cancer and that is a terribly hard thing to do. His partner deserves at the very least respect but my opinion earned acceptance. Which you gave regardless. You obviously understand that fundamentally marriage does not work now. Look at John Edwards cheating on his wife while she had cancer. Kim K can marry for 72 days to make millions off of the wedding. Britney Spears can marry for 72 hours because she was drunk. The list goes on. So in closing, we do we really need to save marriage from? A couple that stuck together during a life threatening disease? The list of failed marriages? I think my money, beliefs, and vote will go to save marriage from what it has became today. I mean what are you trying to save when you can get a divorce at Office Depot out of a box for about 50 bucks?
I can’t believe how MEAN people are, this breaks my heart. But you know who your real friends are!!
I don’t care who you are, race, religion, Gay, Straight, whomever, as long as you love each other and are kind and caring people God loves you!!!
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No, love doesn’t win.
It may take a while, but love always wins in the end.
Thank you! Thank you for sharing such inner most private parts of your life. I can only hope that this posts helps someone out there to change the way they look at such situations and save someone from deep, unnecessary hurt.
Thank you! Thank you for sharing these inner most private parts of your life. I can only hope that someone out there reading this will change the way they look at such situations and save someone some deep, unnecessary hurt.
thank you for sharing! if you have a minute, read this quick story i wrote about my 3 year old son’s take on gay marriage. you might feel a spark of hope. i know i did! http://vanessagobes.blogspot.com/2012/09/a-new-contender-in-race-for-oval-office.html
peace!
Wow, thanks for sharing your story! What a sharp little dude you have. Although, honestly, I’m not sure that Batman would defeat Spiderman…he and I might have a debate on that point.
LOL. he’ll take you up on that, for sure. 😉
Just read the story and i really found such an interesting one. Honestly, I am also a gay and honestly speaking, my family gave all the love and support. I believe the most interesting part of it is that WE ARE BORN TO LOVE AND BE LOVED. God bless everyone; thanks for the wonderful story…
I commend you for your mature reaction to an individual who doesn’t really deserve it. I have trouble not getting incensed and spitting not nice things at people like that – especially when I know this is the world my gay son is living in. If I felt I could actually make a difference by being the bigger person I might try harder but unfortunately, as I approach 60 years of age, I find that these type of people are hopeless and will never see the world in a different way. I take the route of making sure my son knows how much I love him and make sure he knows I am standing there right beside him no matter what. Maybe I’ll get better with those people who despise him – I doubt it.
Reblogged this on sarahjanelives and commented:
Absolutely wonderful post. I have been slowly weeding out the intolerant and hateful among my Facebook ‘friends’. I have also had several remove me, due to my increasing political and ideological postings and commentary. I thought I might miss at least some of them, but as it turns out, it has simplified and improved me Facebook experience. Less hate on my news-feed, less ugly commentary on my wall. As those intolerant, fearful, sad folks depart my social media life, I wish them well. In fact, I wish them all the happiness and joy they could ever wish for. Just someplace far away from me. I don’t need their negative energy.
This story brought tears to my eyes. Homophobia is absolutely horrible and it’s a shame in this day and age people haven’t moved forward not even a small step. There’s a blog I follow, written by a gay man, and he once wrote that every time he mentions his husband he loses followers. It puts knots in my stomach.
Me and my husband was hanging out with my friends, a gay couple. We were in a restaurant, and it was all so lovely and cosy. So I leant over to touch and kiss my husband. My gay friend looked and me and said: “God I so wish I could do that.”
My first reaction was to say “of course you can do that”, but then I just remembered all the comotion it would cause, simply because the same natural action would take place between 2 men. People looking and so on. And it really made me sad! Love is love is love… and that should be the essence of everything….
I feel sorry for your old “friend”. He is obviously missing out on so much in life. And now he is missing out on you too….
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wow. what a story. thanks for sharing. I cannot believe someone would actually take the pains of writing that kind of message! I really hope soon enough our society will be able to name all of this hate going on these days “just a phase”. like it happened with admitting women are equal to men.
This story actually made me cry as a straight man as to how narrow minded and horrible people can be in this day and age.
People.
Seriously….
Look, I am sorry…..but I have never seen a single blog, reply, comment, email, post, or any other such sentence that states “My bigotry is wrong. I now believe what you believe about the bible” from a right-winged Christian turned liberal. I have read and seen so many Facebook and blog fights that I no longer look. You can’t fight through the Internet. You can’t change their opinions. If you want these bigot Christians to change their views, it happen because of you. The Internet gives us this protective shield to be whomever we want to be- and everyone fights tooth and nail to defend their opinion. Let them spew words out of a dusty old book. You know in your heart that true love and acceptance of all is the most righteous thing. Let that be enough. Fight your fight not via the Internet. We just all end up looking like mudskippers flailing around in the mud. Love comes first- you can’t argue against it. Stand your ground with absolute love.
I know it seems that way but I’m one of those ‘dusty book’ people and I’ve been greatly helped in my engagement of the issues raised by my pro-gay and gay friends. Some of my views have changed, some have not but dialouging and debating has helped my mind and heart expand not harden. Don’t be so faithless…change happens, ugliness can soften, hate can be repented, love can grow in the hardest and most seemingly closed places. Helping people be better humans doesn’t mean they have to agree 100%.
I think you may be missing a couple important reasons for continuing to post and fight ignorance on the internet. While it is true that probably most truly dedicated to their own opinions probabloy won’t learn a thing, there are other benefits.
First, for those who face this hatred and prejudice daily, it is a reminder that there are others, MANY others, that don’t believe that they are “wrong” or “abnormal” or even “sinners” for who they choose to love. And for someone that feels lost and scared an alone, seeing this continue on the internet, knowing that people care enough to support them, can make all the difference.
Second, for a new generation, that maybe grows up in those haouseholds that vehemently oppose homosexuality, seeing the support for another belief set may help them in forming their own, more tolerant, belief set as they develop. Sure, they may not post, “OMG, U R RIGHT, MY PARENTS R SO WRONG” but knowing that there is support for alternative, loving thought could easily make a difference, even if they never realize that it does. They have a chance to see that there IS a disconnect between the tenants that they are taught: love your neighbor as yourself v. it’s okay to hate “sinners” and treat them poorly. Maybe it won’t change their opinion on homosexuality, but perhaps it may make them question hateful actions toward them.
Finally, I am reminded of a quote originally by Niemoller:
“In Germany they first came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me – and by that time no one was left to speak up.”
The freedom of religion isn’t the only right guaranteed by our Constitution – we are also granted the right to speak freely – a right those in the quote didn’t necessarily have. If we don’t use it thoughtfully, shame on us.
That said, I admit that getting into heated, name-calling debates on the subject is counter-productive. But simple stories of love (he didn’t call the man that defriended him anything harsher than a “poor, misguided soul” – showing sympathy for him, not hatred) DO have a very important place on the internet and although we may never see the immediate impact, I, for one, firmly believe that it is there.
You’re wrong CPT81. I am one of them. The continual pressuring of my views by reasonable people who refused to put up with my fundamentalist asshattery played a large part in driving me to reevaluate what I believe – first politically, then religiously. Some of my story is at http://winlb.wordpress.com/
I went from ultra-conservative Christian to politically liberal/religiously conservative to liberal on both counts, to liberal humanist over the last several years. My online interactions played a part. Please stop telling others to not express their frustration and their viewpoints. You have no place doing so, for one, and you don’t actually know what effect it will have on others.
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What a beautiful tribute to your brother and his partner. I really don’t understand how people can be so closed-minded at the expense of someone else’s livelihood. Thank you for writing this, and for being Freshly Pressed!
Reblogged this on Time Launch.
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One should be reminded the BIBLE is made up of two parts
the first is the halfbaked ramblings of jewish scripture which
is but the work of insane in a attempt to control of the sane.
Second part of BIBLE be that of christianity which but more
of extended halfbaked jewish scripture by those whom seek
power over the many through halfbaked religious teachings.
Christianity having a yearly turnover of $billions as gained
through appalling fraud / with their promise to the religious
brainwashed they will go to a place called heaven / where
they claim God lives with his son Jesus / a heaven that be
beyond the clouds / one but follows the Yellow Brick Road.
Advertizing works making a problem then offering solution.
Chrisianity a simple formula ( problem SIN ). Where does
SIN come from / it comes from SEX ( sex it claimed is evil )
what then needed is cure solution … ( CURE SOLUTION)
HEY PRESTO is Jesus. How come Jesus ?. You may ask.
Answer / Jesus it claimed not as the norm born of sexual
act, a union of male female / it being claimed that Jesus
born of a virgin …thus free of SIN …..(and it gets better)
having no SIN it claimed Jesus has the power to remove
the SIN of others. Christians claim ones accepting Jesus
they then free of SIN / thus free of SIN one then qualifies
in entering a fictional heaven that be beyond the clouds.
Brothers & Sisters if you fell for christian brainwashing it
reality you need free yourself from such a nest of vipers
if not an christian then your indeed fortunate as blessed.
Such above is not to say such individual as Jesus never
lived / it advising / it be Jesus’s spiritual teachings used
twisted as turned by others in their gain of much worldly
wealth power / individuals whom but religious fraudsters
whom taking full advantage of people’s spiritual naivety.
heresy i say!
lol, that’s a good one. Sounds like someone has never read the Bible. God created sex and called it good…. He called ALL things sin that are done outside of the good purpose that they were created for. Sex is NOT the first or only sin in the Bible. The first sin in the Bible is actually eating an apple after being specifically told not to. Seems odd, but it’s TRUTH!!
That was classed as the sin of disobedience cos God said ‘Don’t’ and they did.
Thank you for sharing this, it left tears in my eyes. Your “baby” brother is lucky to have you in his corner.
amen!
This was beautiful and touching. There should be more people out there like you. Hopefully we are living in an age where, like racism, homophobia will be less and less prevalent. One thing I wish fundamentalist people would remember is that the Bible also teaches tolerance and acceptance of everyone in society. Great work. I’m so happy this message is being spread and that you have been Freshly Pressed. Congrats! You have a new fan. I will be checking back often.
Really? Tolerance and acceptance of everyone in society?
Romans 12:2 — “Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.”
We are called to be in the world but not part of it.
The what is the point of being here if you’re not going to “be a part of it”?? Fly off and find your own planet if this one offends so much.
Maybe you’ll like to take a look at more scripture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banishment_in_the_Bible
In particular, Leviticus 18 verses 22, 24 and 29.
I quote: “Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be CUT OFF from their people.”
Good grief…there we go with Leviticus again. And Leviticus also says eat no shell fish, do not cut your hair or shave, do not wear mixed fibers…yadda yadda yadda. Every single Christian I know IGNORES every verse of Leviticus except for, of course, the man lying man part. Yet, not a single one of them is ever “CUT OFF” from his people for committing any of these “abominations”. Why? Because we have evolved. We have learned. We are not the same people of 2000+ years ago unable to explain the marvelous world around us or how to rid ourselves of illness and disease. So what happened? Rules were created to limit the possibility of those things. Rules that simply are irrelevant in today’s modern world. Period. Picking and choosing what Biblical quotes to follow and which to ignore is nothing short of bending the scripture to suit your point of view. It is not a sound argument. Get a new one. And perhaps troll somewhere else. This author is sharing a heartfelt story that does not need any of Art’s “wisdom”.
Well, it seems like your social circle isn’t very expanded. Christians who ignore Leviticus are guilty of the “bending the scripture” you speak of.
Strong words you speak, founded they aren’t.
Yes again I ask where Jesus speaks out against gays of either gender. I take it you don’t do anything that you mustn’t cos it’s been written in Levitikus. Shell dish, mixed cloth etc. Our dear you wear mixed materials, you’d better cut yourself off from the rest of the world. I prefer to go by what Jesus said and the 12 commandments. I have a Jewish friend who told me that the rules in Leviticus were mostly written to protect the health of the Jews while they were wandering round the desert and although a good Jew, he and many others no longer went by these man made rules.
There you go again, Art, exaggerating and misleading… YOU don’t even follow Leviticus otherwise you would not be cutting gay people off, you would be stoning them. You also would be on sites that praise the virtue of eating lobster and crab since the exact same word is used in Leviticus to describe eating them as “men lying with man”… and that word is more accurately translated as “ritually unclean”.
This is wrong on so many aspects. While Jesus thought us to “Love thy neighbour”, how is accepting that they’re gay actually “loving” them. We should SPEAK OUT against such behaviour because it harms the basic idea of family that Jesus taught us AND because we love them. Jesus loved each and everyone of us, including the Pharisees of his time. Yet he SPOKE OUT openly against them because what they were doing was wrong.
Tl;dr version: If you truly love someone, you won’t want them to go down the wrong path.
PS: This is directed at all the Christians who think LGBT relationships are fine. Not so much at non-believers.
Hi Art,
Thanks for stopping by and commenting. I haven’t considered myself a Christian in about 20 years, and I’ve never been a Biblical scholar, so I’ll not waste time debating scripture with you.
Here is what I know: The fruits of the interpretation you espouse are the rending of families, bullying, depression, and suicide, to name just a few. I understand that the intention is to save souls, but here and now, I see something completely different happening.
I also know that Biblical interpretation has historically been used to justify torture (the Inquisition), genocide (the Crusades), slavery, and the prohibition of inter-racial marriage, to name a few things. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE BIBLE IS BAD. I am saying that man has misused the Word of God for his own agenda more times than can be counted.
So, I will always error on the side of love, and when it is my time to be judged by my Father, I pray that that will be enough.
Peace,
Dave
Appreciate the reply Dave.
I know that biblical interpretation has been used to justify wrong things, even those that we deem are ‘blatantly wrong’. However, I seen the frequent use of the bible to justify gay marriages on your page and to me, that is just wrong. I believe that many on this page cling on to a misguided interpretation of the bible, they look at one part and ignore another. A terrible case of misquoting, if you ask me.
As for the equality of for gays, my primary reason for opposing it is that it is against my beliefs as a Christian.
It’s so funny that some people have so many ways and interpretations that explain away the pro-slavery passages of the bible, but don’t want to entertain interpretations that support love and/or marriage between two gay people.
Brawny71, we can’t restrict people from having their own opinions and interpretations but that doesn’t necessarily mean we have to agree with it. So please do not generalise in saying that.
Personally, I disagree with both slavery and gay marriages. For different reasons altogether, but that’s whole different debate.
I was actually agreeing with what you posted, Art. You said: “I believe that many on this page cling on to a misguided interpretation of the bible, they look at one part and ignore another.” Hello!
Hi Art– Thanks for coming and sharing your opinion. There is little to back you up Biblically . You are speaking in generalities but they are not well founded in scripture. Jesus made a comment about divorce but did not address marriage, never gave a marriage covenant an certainly did not outline a “basic idea of family” as you stated. Jesus in fact challenged followers to leave their families to follow Him…
You seem therefore committed to condemning people for other reasons. Since you are anti-slavery (as is appropriate), you also seem to pick and choose from the Bible what you want.
If you are worried about gay “behavior”, please be aware that there is no unique gay behavior that is not identically a heterosexual behavior. Singling it out because of who does it is the principle of prejudice and special entitlements. And to answer your question, THAT violates Jesus’s second commandment.
Maybe you are here so YOU don’t venture further down the wrong path of Judgement, which the Bible admonishes you about many more times that it says anything that could even be remotely construed as being about gay people.
Hello robw77, I do not pick and choose from the bible as I want. I look at it as a whole, unlike many who just look at one area and neglect another. Anyway, back to the point.
“This is why a man leaves his father and mother and bonds with his wife, and they become one flesh” (Genesis 2:24).
“‘Haven’t you read,’ He [Jesus] replied, ‘that He who created them in the beginning made them male and female, and He also said: For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, man must not separate’” (Matthew 19:4-6).
“Marriage must be respected by all, and the marriage bed kept undefiled, because God will judge immoral people and adulterers” (Hebrews 13:4).
I believe the verses speak for themselves.
I single out gay behaviour because it is blatantly wrong biblically, it’s not an issue of prejudice here. I’d love to see you give some quotes rather than stating what YOU think exists inside the bible.
Because this is so profoundly flawed, I shall address all your concerns.
“There is little to back you up Biblically .” — really? I pretty sure i quoted quite a few times
“You are speaking in generalities but they are not well founded in scripture.” — speak for yourself my friend
“Jesus made a comment about divorce but did not address marriage,” — which version of the bible are you reading? I use NIV. Did you just make that up?
“never gave a marriage covenant an certainly did not outline a “basic idea of family” as you stated.” — posted the verses above. Another generality which is ‘not well founded in scripture’
“Jesus in fact challenged followers to leave their families to follow Him…” — very true, yet not applicable for your argument. By following Jesus, means that you follow all his commands and his ways, which you are deliberately flouting through gay behaviour.
“You seem therefore committed to condemning people for other reasons.” — I do not condemn people, contrary to what most believe. I can’t speak for the others who disagree with you but my notion is that we condemn their ACTIONS, just as one condemns a sin such as murder, and hope for them to change.
“Since you are anti-slavery (as is appropriate), you also seem to pick and choose from the Bible what you want.” — bringing in another issue because you can’t argue this one? You seem to be guilty of the picking and choosing yourself, deliberately ignoring the verses which state that same sex sexual relations are wrong.
“If you are worried about gay “behavior”, please be aware that there is no unique gay behavior that is not identically a heterosexual behavior. Singling it out because of who does it is the principle of prejudice and special entitlements. And to answer your question, THAT violates Jesus’s second commandment.” — As I have stated, it’s not an issue of prejudice. What is wrong is wrong, no matter how you try to argue it. All the commandments apply… as I have said many times, you look at one and ignore the rest.
“Maybe you are here so YOU don’t venture further down the wrong path of Judgement,” — No thank you.
“which the Bible admonishes you about many more times that it says anything that could even be remotely construed as being about gay people” — Already proven wrong. Are you trying to write your own bible?
Come back and try again. How long will these lies prevail?
Hi again, Art,
Thanks again for your engagement in the discussion. I specifically raised the points about slavery, torture, genocide, and segregation for this reason: Because of perceived Biblical legitimacy, otherwise decent people felt justified (and even obligated) to participate in the oppression of others. As humans have become more enlightened, it has become obvious that these practices of oppression are unacceptable, and the Biblical arguments have (largely) disappeared from the table of discussion.
What I see is that making LGBTQs second class citizens (and make no mistake, the prohibition of gay marriage does just that) is yet another manifestation of oppression, one that will eventually be seen for what it is. The Biblical arguments which seem so clear, so cut and dry to so many right now, will in later years be seen as merely a misunderstanding of God’s Word.
I would ask you, why are you against slavery? Again, Biblical knowledge is not my strong point, but I am under the impression that both Testaments explicitly endorse slavery, even suggesting that the slave should treat his master like Christ. So, what has made you see otherwise on this issue?
And why are you holding so tightly to the idea that LGBTQs are wrong in their love? What does it cost you to loosen your grip on that viewpoint, to make room for the possibility that God has more than one type of love which He endorses?
One more time, thanks for your participation in this discussion. Conversation is the key to understanding and ultimately, to peace.
Dave
Hi Art. It is interesting how you do exactly what you claim others are doing.
“ I do not pick and choose from the bible as I want. I look at it as a whole, “ So strange Art, since that is EXACTLY what you did by posting this: “This is why a man leaves his father and mother and bonds with his wife, and they become one flesh” (Genesis 2:24).
That quote is not about marriage…it is about the creation theory that woman came from man. The whole quote is: 23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
And the entire quote of Matthew is: Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
And this one has nothing to do with same sex marriage whatsoever:
“Marriage must be respected by all, and the marriage bed kept undefiled, because God will judge immoral people and adulterers” (Hebrews 13:4).
“I believe the verses speak for themselves.” Not at all, especially when you edit them to say what you want and leave out the whole verses in context. THAT is false witness.
“I single out gay behaviour because it is blatantly wrong biblically, it’s not an issue of prejudice here. I’d love to see you give some quotes rather than stating what YOU think exists inside the bible.” First of all, you have not discussed gay BEHAVIOR at all. You have only discussed being gay, and that is a prejudice… and your need to judge others is wrong biblically. I have shown how you have twisted things with your own quotes… and here is another that addresses YOU. Romans 2 (and unlike your posts which take a quote mid sentence…this is the whole quote….) You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?
Hi Art, I am happy to respond to your further concerns. Thank you for the discussion. “Because this is so profoundly flawed, I shall address all your concerns.” Yeah, not really a good attempt at addressing much at all. Saying you “addressed it” is not actually addressing it.
““There is little to back you up Biblically .” — really? I pretty sure i quoted quite a few times” You mean your out of context quotes so that you could twist their meanings? The second description of creation (and the Bible presents two conflicting ones..) is NOT about marriage or a marriage covenant. It is about creation.
““You are speaking in generalities but they are not well founded in scripture.” — speak for yourself my friend” Oh wow. Touche. Ummm not. Non point with no information.
““Jesus made a comment about divorce but did not address marriage,” — which version of the bible are you reading? I use NIV. Did you just make that up?” As I showed by presenting the full quote… Jesus was discussing divorce, not marriage covenants. If you want to see who is “making things up” look either into the Bible or a mirror.
““never gave a marriage covenant an certainly did not outline a “basic idea of family” as you stated.” — posted the verses above. Another generality which is ‘not well founded in scripture’” Your partial quote out of context is not an answer. Your request for me to show specifically how something is NOT written about in scripture is nonsensical.
““Jesus in fact challenged followers to leave their families to follow Him…” — very true, yet not applicable for your argument. By following Jesus, means that you follow all his commands and his ways, which you are deliberately flouting through gay behaviour.” Of course it is applicable. You claim Jesus had a plan for families, yet He said to leave them (a specific I discussed and you acknowledged…). Just because it refutes your claim does not make it non-applicable. Please describe my gay behavior that I am flouting. If you can’t, you can apologize or admit that you are demonstrating prejudice against a person…and not behavior at all.
“ I do not condemn people, contrary to what most believe. I can’t speak for the others who disagree with you but my notion is that we condemn their ACTIONS, just as one condemns a sin such as murder, and hope for them to change.” Nonsense. You have not mentioned a single gay “action”, only “being gay”. Not an action… its is describing people. What gay “action” are you trying to get people to change?
““Since you are anti-slavery (as is appropriate), you also seem to pick and choose from the Bible what you want.” — bringing in another issue because you can’t argue this one?” Not at all. I am demonstrating, very clearly, your hypocracy. Not answering only confirms that I am correct.
“You seem to be guilty of the picking and choosing yourself, deliberately ignoring the verses which state that same sex sexual relations are wrong.” I am not picking and choosing anything, I am answering the verses you brought up and misrepresented. Again, you want me to specifically state things not there… which is ridiculous and manipulative. If you would like to see information on quotes from the Bible that are misused to condemn Gay people, there are three really good articles on evoL= that do so. And unlike your posts, they use full quotes accurately.
““If you are worried about gay “behavior”, please be aware that there is no unique gay behavior that is not identically a heterosexual behavior. Singling it out because of who does it is the principle of prejudice and special entitlements. And to answer your question, THAT violates Jesus’s second commandment.” — As I have stated, it’s not an issue of prejudice. What is wrong is wrong, no matter how you try to argue it. All the commandments apply… as I have said many times, you look at one and ignore the rest.” You did not address my point at all, which means you have no answer. If you have no answer, it is curious that you are so eager to judge something that is basically none of your business. Why is it you are so personally threatened by gay people? I think that is the REAL issue here.
““Maybe you are here so YOU don’t venture further down the wrong path of Judgement,” — No thank you.” The taking the log out of your own eye while you go for the splinter in your brother’s eye lesson got lost on you, eh? OK. Let’s hear again how you use the whole Bible, don’t fragment it, etc. I think you just refuted yourself quite convincingly.
““which the Bible admonishes you about many more times that it says anything that could even be remotely construed as being about gay people” — Already proven wrong.” You have already proven that the Bible does not admonish against judegment? That’s ridiculous (and see Romans quote above).
“ “Are you trying to write your own bible?” I am fine with the one I have—far better than the abridged “Bible segments to beat other people up” version you are claiming to use.
“Come back and try again.” Your wish is granted. I don’t get bullied that easily.
“ How long will these lies prevail?” The lies will continue as long as you attempt to tell them. Will they prevail? Not a chance.
Ugh, kinda painful to read your format Rob. I’d answer to the best of my ability though.
Yes, the quote in Genesis was about the creation theory… that was what you asked for no? The basic idea of family that God created.
The matter you are discussing is prejudice, which I am not here for. I am not prejudiced against gay people, we treat them with love. Still, I believe that justice must prevail, just like how people are separated from society and kept in prisons when they commit a crime. Before you quote me out of context again, I am NOT saying that gays are criminals or should be kept in prison. The very act of disallowing gay marriages and showing disapproval by ‘defriending’ them and not attending their weddings is sufficient to show that though we love them, we do not want anything to do with such behaviour.
Romans 1:18-28 speaks a lot about not having sexual relations with the same gender. I shan’t quote it here since it’s a pretty long chunk. The point there is that LGBT relations and people are not what God has created, since it clearly states there that it is “unnatural”.
I think the crux of the conflict lies with our perception of love. The bible teaches us to love one another like how God first loved us. You believe that translates to being equal and accepting of one another. Instead, I believe that translates to a message of CHANGE, changing them by God’s love because he first loved us and changed us from sinners.
Hi Art. I agree the format was difficult, but I simply duplicated it from your post as you seem to have wanted to go point by point. And before this gets lost in the response, your claim that I “take you out of context” is dishonest on your part…not only do I take you in complete context, I put your context back into its Biblical context and show how it is fallacious. You asked for response, so you got it.
You said: “Yes, the quote in Genesis was about the creation theory… that was what you asked for no? The basic idea of family that God created.” No, the creation story and the idea of family are very different things. Unless you have families in your neighborhood where the procreation methods were dust and ribs and the children were expected to mate with each other.
You said: “The matter you are discussing is prejudice, which I am not here for. I am not prejudiced against gay people, we treat them with love.” You mistake being somewhat civil with “love”. You have not described a single “gay act” but instead assign your disapproval to the existence of gay people as loving beings. Yes, that is prejudice and your unwillingness to acknowledge it does not change that fact.
“Still, I believe that justice must prevail, just like how people are separated from society and kept in prisons when they commit a crime. Before you quote me out of context again, I am NOT saying that gays are criminals or should be kept in prison. The very act of disallowing gay marriages and showing disapproval by ‘defriending’ them and not attending their weddings is sufficient to show that though we love them, we do not want anything to do with such behaviour.” If that is how you show “love” then I would hate to see how you demonstrate “revulsion”. What behavior over the declaration of love between two people do you consider “sin”? The fact that you cannot discern between a declaration of a commitment and a porno movie speaks to your prejudice.
You said, “Romans 1:18-28 speaks a lot about not having sexual relations with the same gender. I shan’t quote it here since it’s a pretty long chunk. The point there is that LGBT relations and people are not what God has created, since it clearly states there that it is “unnatural”.” Ahhhh now you are just being cowardly. LOL. You know that if you dare post this out of context that I would show your continued fraud in the use of scripture. Romans 1 is about Idol Worship, and the orgy-behaviors of those in Rome who conducted it. Those who did “unnatural” acts are first described as doing heterosexual ones. So– what does this have to do with modern gay people ? NOTHING. It is also interesting to note that the Romans 2 quote I gave you about your judgementalism was specifically addressing people who use the quote you are using to condemn others. You REALLY like pointing the finger at others with no consciousness about your own violations. Classic.
You said: “I think the crux of the conflict lies with our perception of love. The bible teaches us to love one another like how God first loved us. You believe that translates to being equal and accepting of one another. Instead, I believe that translates to a message of CHANGE, changing them by God’s love because he first loved us and changed us from sinners.” yes, we definitely perceive love differently. Your concept however violates pages and pages of Bible directions to the contrary. You are setting yourself up as God and wanting everyone to conform to your sexual instincts of heterosexuality. The Bible does not give you the mandate to lovingly change people, it tells you that you do not have the knowledge to do so. See the Romans quote that I gave you (that you obviously need to hear big time…), or the passage of the Pharasee praying next to the Tax Collector, or the stoning of the adulteress….. You are not getting the message…
Hi Art, and Nancy…
Art, I would challenge (and I am sure that comes as a big shock to you) you on your continued assertions here. I also have some questions for you to show how not prejudiced you are…
You said ““How does their creating a family hurt your own family in any way?” — It hurts the larger family, the body of Christ. Misinterpretations of the gospel, divisions and conflicting ideologies have prevented unity as one church of Christ. More importantly, it hurts God.” Nice empty words with out a shred of substance. Homosexual love and heterosexual love are identical…how does one hurt God and the other supports God…that has no Truth to it. The other part of your comment is almost a joke. Do you honestly think that the issue of homosexuality is the dividing factor between Catholics, Mormons, Protestants of all stripes? The devotion of some of those groups to their hatred seems more of a unifying factor. The fact that their hatred is something that makes them separate from Christ…now THAT is a point worth discussing.
“I’m here to reply and correct the comments on this page, the false beliefs.
Stop feeding the troll.
It really is quite simple. If you don’t believe in same sex marriages, don’t have one. These men deserve the right to a loving, legal commitment. Who are you to sit in judgment, no matter what you quote? You’d rather they marry your sisters and live a lie? How does their creating a family hurt your own family in any way?
By all means, follow your own beliefs, disassociate yourself from some of the kindest, funniest, loving, most ethical people on the planet. They don’t need your judgment, be it Christian, atheist, or simply, “that’s not the way I was raised to think.” It’s none of your business.
Someday, it is likely this will be brought to your doorstep through a loved one of your own and you will have a huge ethical dilemma: Will you choose love or fear? Good luck.
Thanks for the reply Nancy. Unfortunately, this “none of your business” argument is getting really old…. we all can see the results from this kind of mentality. Do I need to give examples?
I speak out and disagree openly with same sex marriages because I desire change, though not like you do. Thank you very much.
“How does their creating a family hurt your own family in any way?” — It hurts the larger family, the body of Christ. Misinterpretations of the gospel, divisions and conflicting ideologies have prevented unity as one church of Christ. More importantly, it hurts God.
I’m not here to debate with you whether equality is right or wrong ethically, it is a prevalent enough issue in my country. I’m here to reply and correct the comments on this page, the false beliefs.
Oh Art, please don’t tell me you’re another one who thinks he only has God’s ear and heart. Even Peter and Paul disagreed on the Word at times, so what makes you think you know it all.
Hi Art,
Thanks again for all of your comments. I’m hoping that you’ll have a minute to address the points I raised in my last reply to you. Since I know the formatting on this board can allow things to get lost, I’ll repost it here:
I specifically raised the points about slavery, torture, genocide, and segregation for this reason: Because of perceived Biblical legitimacy, otherwise decent people felt justified (and even obligated) to participate in the oppression of others. As humans have become more enlightened, it has become obvious that these practices of oppression are unacceptable, and the Biblical arguments have (largely) disappeared from the table of discussion.
What I see is that making LGBTQs second class citizens (and make no mistake, the prohibition of gay marriage does just that) is yet another manifestation of oppression, one that will eventually be seen for what it is. The Biblical arguments which seem so clear, so cut and dry to so many right now, will in later years be seen as merely a misunderstanding of God’s Word.
I would ask you, why are you against slavery? Again, Biblical knowledge is not my strong point, but I am under the impression that both Testaments explicitly endorse slavery, even suggesting that the slave should treat his master like Christ. So, what has made you see otherwise on this issue?
And why are you holding so tightly to the idea that LGBTQs are wrong in their love? What does it cost you to loosen your grip on that viewpoint, to make room for the possibility that God has more than one type of love which He endorses?
One more time, thanks for your participation in this discussion. Conversation is the key to understanding and ultimately, to peace.
Dave
To deny ones genetic structure is in closing the stable
door after the horse having bolted / it’s simply too late.
A individual has no control over their genetic structure.
It’s the same with close knit communities as with some
nations where genetic pooling not available / or being
it simply not allowed / thus you get people turned out
in millions whom being as if factory mass produced…
having same features / same thoughts / same future.
With western nations there having been much pooling
of genetics which has provided a much greater variety
of very individual /individuals / whom by nature expand
the boundaries of human understand and experiences
thus it’s a conflict of learning that arises / those whom
wish traditional & those whom continue their expansion
of human boundaries in taking understanding in taking
experience further unto the essence of creation creator.
If progress not accepted we would still be at the stage
of swinging through the trees in the form of a monkey.
What being the purpose of life ? is the age old question
answer to question within ultimate stage in development
the ultimate stage is meditation. One turning the senses
inward in one’s bringing a unfolding of their spiritual self.
On PC search put ( words of peace ) or (words of peace
global) on site a selection of videos in which Prem Rawat
talks explains meditation / of turning the senses inward in
a unfolding of the spiritual self / such spiritual experience
it gifts a clarity of understanding / thus all ones questions
be answered. Whom am I ?. What be the purpose of life ?.
Throughout history of humanity there be spiritual teachers
among all the “Teacher of Teachers” whom being an guide
in reaching the stage of meditation. Presenly the “Teacher
of Teachers ” is Prem Rawat / he being the best of the best
his life is dedicated unto a aid to those whom seek knowing
the creator to go beyond ideas /beliefs / unto one Knowing.
Thanks – This is beautiful. I continue to be amazed by how scripture is misused, selectively, to exclude people from rites of hope, healing, and covenant. I read your posting while working on my sermon for tomorrow, which is on Mark 7: 24-37, where Jesus crosses a bunch of physical and cultural boundaries, has his mind changed by a foreign woman, and gives up on taking a vacation to bring people who had been judged beyond the pale back into community. I wonder what your Baptist preacher ex-friend will preach tomorrow?!
Wow, I thought today, looking at the 1021 comments to this post. Controversial, sympathy-inspiring topic, of course. Wonderfully written. Left a comment here a few days ago. Wondered if it got any responses – thank goodness I didn’t subscribe to reactions to this post! 🙂
Bit disappointing to see the headbutting going on – possibly why there are that many comments. As an author I would have discouraged this on my post, and not have allowed people to get into rants. And then for a grown man – Kevin – to call someone dearie, pffft, couldn’t be more condescending. I can’t reply to him. Just as well. Action –> reaction eh?
Hi It’s only… Thanks for your comment. The authors on evoL= welcome comments, even the adversarial ones. We recognize that there are neigh sayers and those operating in ignorance…if they stay silent, we can’t confront those ideas. The authors who make up this blog came together as the result of exactly that kind of discussion. We all “met” as we stood up for our principles in the discussion section of another popular blog. Through our mutual support, we all became friends, several of us have met in person… and this blog site was born. So, yes…we encourage discussion. Wonderful things can come from it.
Rob, you are awesome! I really liked your response to Art too! Keep up the good work, my friend.
I’ve seen members of a family constantly post facebook statuses containing things like “I can’t believe I have to deal with gay people. What are my children going to do??” from the young daughter, and bible quotes from the parents.
Meanwhile, they have a gay family member. A gay son. Who they obviously do not give 2 hoots about when they post such vile and completely unnecessary statuses thought they claim to love him.
It baffles my mind.
Great post. Beautiful to read. I wish the bigots would stop hiding behind God’s skirts. She’s had enough. But I am hopeful – in my lifetime I have seen a huge shift in culture around sexuality and equality. These days I think the majority of straight people now know gay people in their families, circle of friends or as colleagues. They can see that being queer with your sexuality is really not that big a deal, and the whole “anti-gay” hate just comes across as insane. I think about the extreme racism of even 40 years ago and it seems outrageous that it was the mainstream. The same type of shift is happening with sexuality. (I’m not saying racism is over, I know there is still a long way to go, but at least we all agree now that it’s bad, and has no place in a civil, democratic society, or any society for that matter.)
I am sure in some part of the world there will be a community who would put you in a, perhaps hitherto unknown, category and start discriminating against you. Unfortunately, this is a flaw in our characters. It will take a long time before we begin judging people for what they do to/for others rather than what category they belong to or do to/for themselves.
I’m glad I read this. I grew up in an area known for its LGBT community, and when a close friend came out to me, I thought nothing of it, and it really hasn’t changed our relationship. I wish I could say “I can’t believe people are still like this”, but sadly I know it’s there. All the best to you and your family 🙂
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Wow. I still find it amazing that people, in this day and age, have a problem with what is, essentially, none of their business. I don’t care what any of my friends get up to in the bedroom – frankly, I don’t even want to know – because it’s none of my business. Does it affect my life? Does it, in some way, mean I can’t live my life the way I want to? No, of course not. People should get over themselves and grow up and leave everyone else the hell alone. I am not gay, not even remotely, but I don’t care if someone else is. It’s like having a problem with someone who has red hair or long eyelashes or a big nose. “Oh my God! That guy over there has freckles! We must ostracise and condemn him!” It is THAT dumb. It makes no sense and is just pathetic and stupid. The gay guys/girls I know are no better or worse than anyone else. They are just people.
So to you and your brother, I say Be Happy. You deserve that the same as anyone else. Love is love and it shouldn’t be mocked or despised in whatever form it takes. There’s enough hatred and animosity and despair in the world without adding to it. I hope your brother and his husband live a fulfilling, wonderful, exceptional life together and are surrounded by people like you. 🙂
This is such an inspiring post. God also teaches us not to judge others, that it’s His job to do that. Thank you for not judging, but loving instead. I would be proud to have a brother like you!
God does say to judge righteously.
Just because someone is against gay marriage doesn’t make them homophobic. I don’t support gay marriage, but I don’t despise my gay cousin or my gay friend. Nothing’s changed since they came out.
I think protecting the foundation of the family is crucial. I don’t support polygamy either. I wonder, for all the liberals and gay marriage supporters, are there any limits on marriage? If gays wanted to marry ten partners should we allow that too?
No, you don’t despise your gay cousin or friend, you just believe that their relationships and families deserve no legal protections or recognition, and that their love is immoral and inferior.
In totally not hateful manner of course.
Civil unions give such relationships the protection/recognition they want and need.
Yip, completely non hateful, but of course…
Right. You don’t despise your gay cousin or your gay friend. You simply think they shouldn’t be allowed to marry. You think they deserve fewer rights than you do, simply because of who they love.
Yes, that’s much better. Have yourself a cookie.
Rory, are there any limits on marriage?
Hi Kyla,
Thanks for commenting.
By no means can I speak for the entire Gay Marriage movement, but my understanding is that what is sought after is equal legal protection. Civil unions, in many states, grant a certain number of the privileges and protections that marriage does, but not all. That is not fair. The movement at large is not seeking a change in what individual churches will and will not do. This is a civil rights issue, not a religious issue.
As far as limitations on marriage, again, the goal is the legal union of two people, just like in conventional heterosexual marriages. Bear in mind, also, that LGBTQs make up somewhere between 3 and 10 percent of the population (depending on which study you read) and not all of them want to get married. So to suggest that this is a threat to the family is, in my mind, inaccurate. Personally, I could never marry a man, I just don’t have it in me. Going to my brother’s gay wedding didn’t change that one iota.
Personally, I try to be careful about “judging righteously.” The fruits of the righteous judgement of LGBTQs are the rending of families, bullying, depression, and suicide, to name just a few. These fruits are creating hell on earth. I’m not a Biblical scholar, but I’m pretty sure that that is not what Jesus had in mind.
Once again, thanks for your comments.
Peace,
Dave
Dear Dave
Thanks for your comments. I really liked the way you spoke to me. I didn’t feel attacked. The left often comes across as aggressive and intolerant when they talk to people who don’t support gay marriage. I’m definitely going to take your thoughts into consideration.
Thanks for keeping an open mind! Enjoy the day!
I didn’t whether I was for or against it. I don’t think it’s my job to say whether what someone else does with their life is right or wrong, especially if it doesn’t affect me personally or anyone else. I think that it’s only my job only to try to do MY best to follow what God says and to positively affect other’s around me, not tell everyone how to live.
I don’t want to tell anyone else to believe or do, I simply meant in my comment to say it’s nice to see someone stick by their loved ones and have a postive view in life. It can be a rare thing.
But who knows? I’m young and maybe I’m wrong about all of this! I certainly can’t claim to know it all.
Re: “Just because someone is against gay marriage doesn’t make them homophobic.” Really? Because I used to be against it, until I realized that was only because I was AFRAID to question what I was told in a Scripture that I was told was “inerrant” or AFRAID of what would happen if marriage laws were expanded to include other couples. (It has had no effect.) SO, to recap: Afraid—>Fear—>Phobia—>Homophobia. No way around it, actually. (And incidentally, three-way marriages wouldn’t bother me either. Those Sister Wives aren’t doing anything I’d want any part of, but that is who they are and what they’re doing, and if one of them was someone I loved, Id support her decision.)
Also, I hope I don’t come across as critical. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinions and what they believe and I appreciate those that speak their mind. It allows us all to question our own beliefs and either cement them or form new ones!
I am so sad that people twist the words of the Bible around with their hatered for others that are different from themselves. They are the losers. They are double losers because they aren’t worth being around, and because they deprive themselves of the opportunity to know some truely wonderful people. Thanks so much for sharing this with the rest of us, and thanks to whomever chose this post to be freshly pressed!!
I don’t think Christians are losers.
I think the people who do the twisting of the words are the losers. They miss out on being friends with wonderful people because they don’t like the way they look or who they love. It is sad the country that the USA is becoming because of bigotry.
They are
Nice. We need more of you in the world.
Isn’t it funny how people attack what they are afraid homophones attack gays, athiests attack people of religion.
Wonderful post. Very loving and compassionate way to also deal with the person who “defriended” you on Facebook. I admire you. I teach high school, and I see so many different kids from different walks of life on a daily basis. I watch them struggling with their adolescence, and all the problems and confusion and bullying and questioning and coming of age and coming to a realization of who they are on a day to day basis. For kids who are homosexual, I see the additional struggle of feeling isolated and rejected on one end of the spectrum, yet becoming empowered and willing to stand up for themselves and express themselves and their full personalities and choices with a growing confidence and maturity well beyond their years. I don’t have kids yet but I look at all of my students and want them to have joy and peace in their lives, and I want them to live in a world (and to create a world) in which they are free to express themselves and discover themselves, and ultimately to love themselves and the ones they choose to have in their lives. Congratulations to your brother & his husband, by the way. I wish them joy and happiness.
Megan / to discover one’s true self but via meditation
meditation one brings a unfolding of the spiritual self.
On PC search put (words of peace) or put (words of
peace global) on site an selection of videos in which
Prem Rawat talks of meditation / of one’s turning the
senses inward in an unfolding of the spiritual self / in
such spiritual experience one gifted the gift of clarity
in that all ones questions be answered / in one going
beyond ideas as beliefs /unto that of knowing creator.
Throughout history of humanity there spiritual teachers
among all is the “Teacher of Teachers” present time the
“Teacher of Teachers” is Prem whom has dedicated his
life as aid to those having reached a stage of meditation
that via meditation the journey of humanity is completed.
Thanks for this, I love it and empathise with it. I have had people reject me for being gay, most potently my family, but only my close family, my cousins and aunts and uncles were supportive. It took years, but i changed my closest family members opinions. They werent actually that worried about me being gay, more worried about what other people would think about it, and so they thought it better to just cast me out. My biggest bugbear is that people who call themselves “Christian” always are ready to cast the first stone, and never ready to “Love thy neighbour”, they would rather follow a flawed translation of a religious book written centuries ago and then rewritten by English Kings to suit their political needs of the time. Live and let live – what harm does anyones sexual preference do to you personally ? Nothing. So why should you care. Straight people need gay people in the world or else there would be too many people fighting over the same woman, and gay people need straight people, or else there would never be any more gay people. Let us all just step back and enjoy the great things that diversity brings.
Reblogged this on On Facebook and commented:
Defriended because photos revealed his stance on gay marriage.
This is such an engaging reflection. Way to step back, think about it, and deliver a sound argument for love!
Your brother is lucky to have you. It’s up to people like us to be there for those who are the victims of ignorance, fear and hatred.
Love does win. I’m a 29 year old straight man who has lived with a gay man for the past 11 years and I support him and the LGBT community so fervently that it is my first priority when I meet a woman I am interested in. If she has negative things to say about homosexuals it is a deal breaker. It usually means there are serious incompatibilities with my world view in general, and the red flags start popping up all over the place. I have great love for all types of people, but I choose not to spend my life among those who think they have the right to put others down. The there is never a legitimate reason for any kind of bullying.
Thank you for your post!
I think that it’s a shame that he feels that way. I’m sorry that this happened to you and that he made you feel this way. As a man of God, I would think that he would know better. Regardless of what people have decided to translate from the Bible, God is about love. Nothing I have ever read tells me to disclude anyone.
Congrats to your brother for his recent wedding and congrats to you for gaining a brother!!
Thank you for posting this. As the mother of a gay teenager, I am glad that there are more and more people like you. I have hope for his future.
I totally and entirely agree with you. There is nothing wrong with being gay. And I hate people who preach that whole “God says no gay people” crap. God created everyone just the way they are, and he loves them just the way there are.
I wish your brother and his husband (and you!) lots and lots of happiness.
We were originally created in HIs image. Is God gay? It’s a fallen world, and He surely loves us they way we are and where we are and who we are. Tough row to hoe!
freedlife / Is God Gay ?. You had even the Almighty laughing at that..
I having been told to inform you / that you have made God’s day……
that you should use internet by putting in PC seach (words of peace)
or put (words of peace global) where every question that your having
will be answered) as oppertunity to accept gods invitation to heaven.
maggiemoo414 / You have God’s blessing (however the
Almighty is a bit disheartened at your hate of people….
I have been informed by the Almighty such a attitude of
hate against any deserving you an very sound spanking.
Thank you for sharing. I have always felt as you do. It boggles my mind that some people, religious or otherwise, lack such common sense– and common civility.
I am a Chritian and I believe in the bible as the word of God. WAIT WAIT, don’t stop reading. I wanted to say, on behalf of Myself, and I feel God that I am sorry that you have felt this hurt. What I believe should not be inforced on people that do not believe in the same thing. I beleive with all my heart that God would take all three of you into his arms and say “I love you my boys! I made you with my hands and I do not make mistakes. I am sorry for the words people have spoken to you in hate.”
AMBER / that was the funniest comment that any must have read
in the last decade / t’was truly funny…. God Bless & Best Wishes.
Saying one’s gay is like saying one’s white black
that one is chinese or russian or being mogolian
( or god forbid one born american) ( just joking )
the reality much of the physical is down to ones
genetic structure of which one having no control
& understand your not the physical structure / it
but a transport for you tro travel in the material
it not you / thus don’t mistake ones true identity.
Accept what your having in that of human form
one having no choice but accept what one has
been formed / as it be with illness which is due
to the genetic structure one need accept such
as one makes the best of that / having formed.
If people wish bringing a complaint of anothers
genetic structure / then such complaint should
be addressed to the Almighty not a individual.
If one does take a complaint to the Almighty it
the Almighty most likely is of aggreement that
the design of the human form is not perfected
yet through times the human forms becoming
more streamlined it becoming improved better.
Look at first attempts of life the dinosaur now
look at todays human form of male as female
one seeing it’s a incredable piece of creation
the femal form is the finest work of perfection
as in being the male form / one need not be
gay to appreciate seeing a living work of art
by the artist of artists the creator of creation.
However there being the purpose for it all
that it via heart as brain comes a gradual
understanding as experience unto one in
knowing creator via spiritual experience.
Such is the purpose of creation that the
Almighty can introduce itself … and of
course such happens now via looking at
the material creation / the universe the
planet EARTH that can sustain life / it
allowing one to experience the Almighty
in a diluted form / thus one can accept
such / preparing one to experience the
Almighty in such not so diluted form but
that of very stong spiritual experiences
( I say of spiritual experiences because
many look at the source of creation in
a spiritual sense (however if your not a
spiritual person then ignore such word
spiritual ( it but a word ) and such true
experience of the power of creation but
far / far / far / beyond words to describe.
One thing one must say about sex / if it
be humanity was to survive then sex had
to be potent / and indeed it be potent it
having allowed humanity to survive as
grow in understanding as experience to
the stage where many millions of souls
are reaching such stage where they are
prepared for that of meditation / in their
turning the senses inward unfolding the
spiritual self in far greater experiences.
It having been a long journey / millions of
years / it’s understandable people may at
times lose heart / feeling its just worthless
to be alive (yet truely there’s purpose to it
such purpose is one knowing the power of
creation / experience such in it’s essence.
Such the design of human form / of heart
brain /via understanding experience one
can go beyond ideas as beliefs / to know
creator/ that one understanding creation.
William. Where are you from? Most of your posts only make sense because I can guess at what you are getting across. Also, the idea that someone believes in the GOD of the Bible is not so funny to me, and if you think it is, it may not be so funny to you someday.
The last line wrote that people were made to feel as i they were fundamentally flawed, but guess what? WE ALL ARE! That is the problem! Everyone deals with sin of every kind on a daily basis. It is what we chose to put our hope in. You cancontinue in bondage to sin, or you can allow Jesus’s death and resurrection to be your hope, as HE was our sacrificial lamb once and for all. So, yes, if you are a person, you ARE fundamentally flawed….
Thank you so much. People like you make me want to help children grow in this world. Before I was so hurt and bitter at all I had personally experienced as well as the numerous experiences of others. I thought to myself, “who would bring a child into this world? What if he or she turned out like me? I would never want my child to go through what I did and would do anything to spare them the soul crushing loneliness and heartbreaking pain the world seems to have in endless supply.” But more and more I see people like you. People who go out of their way to love. People who protect us even though they have nothing to gain, and everything to lose. THOSE are the type of people I would pray daily my child would grow up to emulate. it’s may not mean much, but thank you. You’re helping me by keeping my hope alive. Thank you so very much and God bless you.
Thank you for sharing this. I wish you brother and his husband all the happiness in the world.